Where is/can Donald Trump take US (sic)?

wayneL said:

FYI Grasshopper

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

There is also an Australian version

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Fabian_Society

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Wayne, COMMUNISM : IT IS NOT DEAD AND BURIED.

In fact it is very much alive in the Green/Labor left wing coalition.

The Fabian motto is "WE ARE WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING".

If the Green/Labor coalition were to rename their party the Labor Communist Party they would be trance at any election.

They believe in central control as we have witnessed in their control of the ABC and all their offshoots like GETUP, QandA, Media check, 7.30 report and late line......Bill Shorten is a foundation member and past board member of GETUP.....It is their propaganda machine and they keep slowly chipping away...Their next step if they ever gained the reigns in Canberra is to control the banks followed by control of mining, agriculture and manufacturing, or I should say what is left of it.

wayneL said:

The Fabian society is a Left-wing movement Grasshopper.

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I know that that's considered the "Left" movement, but is it Left or just certain segment of the political elite shaping their message and mission to suit the popular movement?

As Confucius says, those who give to the people gain the people. Those who gain the people, gain the world (The Great Learning).

So what did Australians after WW2 want from their government? More capitalism or more social democratic value - you know, help out my dead mate's widow and orphans; I went to fight against Nazism and imperial over-reach for freedom and equality among citizens, give us some of that. etc. etc.

And the power did give some of that. Not because they got a lot nicer, but because if they don't... well there are plenty of examples still smouldering in Europe showing what had happened to more than a handful of Royal Houses and fat cat capitalists who wanted it all.

As the Historian Howard Zinn observes, history and social movement are not made or shaped by any one leader; they have always been shaped and led by the masses. The leader that get the credit, some just ride the wave, one or two might have actually believe the idealism... but once power are attained, the leadership either take it all and start screwing the revolution; or they get disillusioned by their compatriots; or they get shot or otherwise removed.

That's why a clown like Trump managed to become president: he just speak and pay lip service to the anger the people are feeling. People know his bs, just that they're so desperate for a change that anyone but the current establishment is worth a chance. And that is why Bernie Sanders, who may or may not be a real progressive, would have won the election if the Democrats didn't screw him over with rules design to keep outsiders like himself out.. .and when that does not seem to work because the guy is so popular, they take it into their hands to tip the scale and give the people one big middle finger.

The Democrats, and our own Labor, aren't Lefties... they all serve the same master, and that master ain't the plebs.

luutzu said:

know that that's considered the "Left" movement, but is it Left or just certain segment of the political elite shaping their message and mission to suit the popular movement?

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Democracy itself doesn't change it's meaning = rule of the people. This contrasts with the alternatives of oligarchies, aristocracies, totalitariansim, etc. It implies freedom of the individual to rule his own destiny, which ain't going to happen in any tribe...no way. So once you start tinkering with it with variants it automatically becomes a leftist model by degrees.

Today the old basics like legal equality, civil liberties, political freedom, sovereignty and autonomy, openness and accountability have been replaced by neo Liberalism where money and labour efficiency allow corporations to skirt the core democratic norms.

The bastardisation of the democracy is variants to the theme, being e.g. liberal democracies, socialist democracies, etc.

The real problem is that no one knows what left and right are; they have always been a cliche bogey used by men seeking power through fear. I seem to recall arguments about left and right being described as Hegelian thematics, which is probably very true.

Rudd has tweeted that he feels the immigration bans will increase the number of terrorist attacks. I don't think I've ever seen a more stupid comment from a politician.

Well President Alternative Reality has decreed that any traveller from a host of nations could be a "very bad person" and the risk to the US is just too much to bear. So we have the instant travel bans.

Of course this isn't about Muslins per se is it ? O course not President Alternative Reality made sure to mention this was about the overwhelming danger posed to the good folks of the USA by any person from Iran, Somalia, Sudan ect.

Trouble is other people have a different story. Rudolph Giuliani for example. This is what he had to say.



But of course Rudolph never actually said this did he ?

https://twitter.com/jpscasteras/status/825717327635349504

Tisme said:

Democracy itself doesn't change it's meaning = rule of the people. This contrasts with the alternatives of oligarchies, aristocracies, totalitariansim, etc. It implies freedom of the individual to rule his own destiny, which ain't going to happen in any tribe...no way. So once you start tinkering with it with variants it automatically becomes a leftist model by degrees.

Today the old basics like legal equality, civil liberties, political freedom, sovereignty and autonomy, openness and accountability have been replaced by neo Liberalism where money and labour efficiency allow corporations to skirt the core democratic norms.

The bastardisation of the democracy is variants to the theme, being e.g. liberal democracies, socialist democracies, etc.

The real problem is that no one knows what left and right are; they have always been a cliche bogey used by men seeking power through fear. I seem to recall arguments about left and right being described as Hegelian thematics, which is probably very true.

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Look at what the "liberal", "lefty" Trilateral Commission (planners who eventually work in Jimmy Carter's circle of advisers) says of democracy: The Crisis of Democracy

i.e. there's just too much freedom and learning among the troublesome masses demanding less wars and imperialism for more stuff like healthcare, education and other useless things. This, as the Vietnam War has shown, impede us responsible men of destiny from carrying out God's plan to direct and maintain this great country of ours as the global Hegemon.

i.e. things must be done to prevent too much freedom and avert this Crisis of Democracy.

How do we do that?

First, get the media on the gov't side. Make a few patriot like Murdoch filthy rich by bailing them out of their losses, permit them to game the tax system, buy up other small time media moguls... then let him relay our message of freedom and democracy.

Second, get rid of free education and those meddling hippy commo professors teaching the kids to think and care and empathise with their fellow citizens and the less fortunate. Make the kids and their parents pay through the nose for any kind of "education", defund universities so that they will have to rely on private philantrophy who will obviously give money so the kids can learn to not like them.

Third, danger! Danger everywhere. First it's the Soviets, godless bastards. After that collapsed... free market is awesome... That didn't work so well... Terrorism! Islamic terrorists following the crazy religion to hate foreign invaders taking their stuff and killing their family at will.

A lot of individual rights and civil liberties have been won by citizens of the West. Won, not given.
All are being systematically taken away right under our noses and most of us figured it's all Muslim's fault. It's like saying that my daddy would have been very nice to me and my family if it weren't for him needing to take all our money, go over there beating the crap out of you guys to take your stuff and give it all to his mistresses.

basilio said:

Well President Alternative Reality has decreed that any traveller from a host of nations could be a "very bad person" and the risk to the US is just too much to bear. So we have the instant travel bans.

Of course this isn't about Muslins per se is it ? O course not President Alternative Reality made sure to mention this was about the overwhelming danger posed to the good folks of the USA by any person from Iran, Somalia, Sudan ect.

Trouble is other people have a different story. Rudolph Giuliani for example. This is what he had to say.



But of course Rudolph never actually said this did he ?

https://twitter.com/jpscasteras/status/825717327635349504

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Apparently there's an exception to the ban: Those of minority religion from these Islamic countries can come in.

Any more overtly racist than this and they'd be setting up concentration camps.

Okay guys, apart from me enjoying watching the butthurt, you're getting a bit hysterical here. Grasshopper maked a good attempt at sophistry, but bas, good Lord, basilio!

Just never seen anyone older than 13 behave so petulantly, all except most of of his leftist comrades that is.

Thanks, the entertainment is awesome. lol

So Wayne just nothing really wrong, stupid or dangerous about President Alternative Reality deciding to immediately stop all travellers from seven countries entering the USA on grounds that one of them might be a very bad guy ? People who yesterday had been checked and rechecked were just going to a wedding/coming home/ moving to job and today held to prove they weren't a public danger.

Clearly your down the rabbit hole with him.

basilio said:

So Wayne just nothing really wrong, stupid or dangerous about President Alternative Reality deciding to immediately stop all travellers from seven countries entering the USA on grounds that one of them might be a very bad guy ? People who yesterday had been checked and rechecked were just going to a wedding/coming home/ moving to job and today held to prove they weren't a public danger.

Clearly your down the rabbit hole with him.

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We'd all be in some kind of hole if Trump keep this kind of nonsense up.

Good thing he's a coward and the Americans are protesting each time he thought he could just scribble his name and it's done, whatever it is.

wayneL said:

Okay guys, apart from me enjoying watching the butthurt, you're getting a bit hysterical here. Grasshopper maked a good attempt at sophistry, but bas, good Lord, basilio!

Just never seen anyone older than 13 behave so petulantly, all except most of of his leftist comrades that is.

Thanks, the entertainment is awesome. lol

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Beside a handful of Hillary diehards and practically all the DNC politicians, Americans aren't upset over Trump because Hillary lost and Trump won. So there's no butthurt there Sifu.

There will be a whole lot of butt and other hurting though. I mean, the golden curtains had only been hung in the Oval Office 9 days ago and he's scaring any sensible people, the world over.

Interesting to note the absolute bleeding obvious; that invoking the travel ban and targeting Muslims (who you didn't have business dealings with...) could blow up in your face.
Excellent article that pulls together all the blowback and stupidity of the action.

Jihadist groups hail Donald Trump's travel ban as a victory

• Joby Warrick

Jihadist groups on Sunday celebrated the Trump administration's ban on travel from seven Muslim-majority countries, saying the new policy validates their claim that the United States is at war with Islam.
Comments posted to pro-Islamic State social media accounts predicted that President Donald Trump's executive order would persuade American Muslims to side with the extremists. One posting hailed the US president as "the best caller to Islam," while others predicted that Trump would soon launch a new war in the Middle East.

.....The reaction to the ban from Islamic State sympathisers came as current and former US officials also expressed concerned that the temporary ban would undermine the global fight against violent Islamic militants. Senator John McCain chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he worried about the ban's impact on Muslim troops fighting alongside Americans to destroy the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.

....
Robert Richer, a 35-year CIA veteran and former chief of the agency's Near East division, said the ban was a "strategic mistake" that could undermine future efforts to recruit spies and collect vital information about terrorists and their plans. How, he asked, can CIA officers persuade Iraqi and Syrian nationals to risk their lives to help the United States?

"This was a win for jihadists and other anti-US forces," said Richer, the deputy chief of the agency's Operations Directorate during the George W. Bush administration. "It fuels the belief out there that Americans are anti-Islam. Otherwise, it accomplishes nothing, because the ones we are most concerned about can still get to the United States."

http://www.theage.com.au/world/jiha...-travel-ban-as-a-victory-20170130-gu17am.html

luutzu said:

Beside a handful of Hillary diehards and practically all the DNC politicians, Americans aren't upset over Trump because Hillary lost and Trump won. So there's no butthurt there Sifu.

There will be a whole lot of butt and other hurting though. I mean, the golden curtains had only been hung in the Oval Office 9 days ago and he's scaring any sensible people, the world over.

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Trump has put a brick wall up against American Socialism and that is what is hurting the Democrats......Their march to central control has been halted.

noco said:

Trump has put a brick wall up against American Socialism and that is what is hurting the Democrats......Their march to central control has been halted.

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Might want to read some Alternate history noco. He's undoing whatever was left of whatever it was that prevented the US going into full blown rebellion during the Great Depression.

Good luck with that.

luutzu said:

Might want to read some Alternate history noco. He's undoing whatever was left of whatever it was that prevented the US going into full blown rebellion during the Great Depression.

Good luck with that.

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Obama has placed the USA into the highest debt in the history of that country.......History is repeating itself every where you see a socialist government...They just cannot manage the economy....In Australian federal politics or in state politics it is the same.

You have to ruin the economy of a country before converting to socialism....Didn't you know that?
You are never too old to learn.

basilio said:

Comments posted to pro-Islamic State social media accounts predicted that President Donald Trump's executive order would persuade American Muslims to side with the extremists.

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Let's see if I have this straight.

Islamic extremists, such as the Taliban and ISIS, have done some of the most horrific and cruelest things imaginable. Not only do that decapitate anyone from opposing sides at a whim, but we have seen children being slowly decapitated in front of their mothers. Non-combatants such as journalists have been burned alive in cages, homosexuals have been thrown off tall buildings and we have seen the attempted extermination of minority groups, such as Christians. Even children from "their own side" have been used as suicide bombers. They have probably committed atrocities crueler than anything witnessed in any war to date and if they had access to weapons of mass destruction, they would likely commit genocide on a global scale on those who do not profess their brand of Islam. The atrocities they commit on a daily basis are beyond dispute and are proudly shown on YouTube and other media. Their genocidal intentions against non-muslims were recently published in a document titled, if I remember correctly, "Why We Hate The West"

Their barbarity is no secret to anyone.

Yet, if this article truly reflects the mood of American Muslims, an executive order by Trump that puts a temporary stay on Muslims from a half dozen or so countries entering the USA is enough to make American Muslims support those extremists. This order no doubt will inconvenience a lot of people and has been badly thought through and implemented. It is likely also not supported by the majority of Americans. But no-one is being injured or killed by the order and is likely less of a problem worldwide to Muslims than say the policies that are already in place in countries like Japan, China, Russia and many more countries in relation to immigration from these same and many other Muslim majority countries.

If truly reflective of American Muslims, then what does that say about them? That they can be just as cruel and inhuman as ISIS and the Taliban if citizens of half a dozen Muslim countries are temporarily denied rights to access the US even though many of the affected countries allow few rights to non-Muslims when it comes to their own countries.

If true, doesn't it actually vindicate Trump's actions?

bellenuit said:

It is likely also not supported by the majority of Americans.

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???

Secretly I think it would be supported by the majority of Americans even though it is obviously unfair to law abiding people. The trouble is you can easily tell who the terrorists are.

noco said:

Obama has placed the USA into the highest debt in the history of that country.......History is repeating itself every where you see a socialist government...They just cannot manage the economy....In Australian federal politics or in state politics it is the same.

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Obama doubled the USA debt. So did Bush.

As you point out we've got the same thing here in Australia. Federal debt at an all time record high under a Liberal government meanwhile Labor are doing much the same in states where they're in power.

May as well combine the lot and call it the National Liberal Socialist Green Labor Party. Americans can call theirs the Democratic Republic Party.

luutzu said:

Might want to read some Alternate history noco. He's undoing whatever was left of whatever it was that prevented the US going into full blown rebellion during the Great Depression.

Good luck with that.

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Perhaps you should read Von Mises, Hayek, et al on that.

Oh, and basilio... rabbit hole?

As is my usual practice, I'll evaluate his actions, in toto, as time goes by. i hope he won't be as disappointing as Obama.