Victorian Fires

ghotib said:

It's like cyclones in the tropics. You learn, you adapt, you plan, you get on with life, and sometimes you just plain run out of luck.



Ghoti

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Too true.
The first year I lived up here and there was a cyclone warning a group of us packed up and went inland. The cyclone didn’t eventuate.
The next time a group of us camped in the office of a friend in a heritage stone block building.
The cyclone didn’t eventuate.
Over the years of living with these threats, I haven’t become complacent but I have become pragmatic. Leaving my house means leaving my animals behind and where do you go anyway?
Now when there is a cyclone warning , I clear my yard of anything that might become a flying missile, check batteries and torches, buy a supply of fresh drinking water and food that doesn’t need cooking and have a small bag with essentials packed in case I have to get out in a hurry or get rescued. Include animal food and a couple of CDs of photos in that. (Also a bottle of rum and a block of chocolate)

It’s more expensive to build or renovate a house up here than down south because building codes insist on extra structural reinforcement because of the cyclone threat.
With all the rebuilding that needs to be done in the Victorian bush fire region it seems to me that it is the perfect time for building regulations to be changed so that it is mandatory to include some kind of fireproof bunker in those plans. From other posts on this and another site and also from that ABC programme last night it appears this is doable for not too much money.

I can understand staying to defend your property, as tragic as the consequences of that decision has been for some people.
The thing that I have never been able to understand is why people who choose to live in regions that are known to be under threat of catastrophes such as bushfires, or cyclones etc do not insure their home and/ or contents. This comes up every time something like this happens.
If it was just people who were living on the breadline and who really couldn’t afford the premiums then I can see how this could happen. But this isn’t always the case.
Personally, I have donated to this appeal. But I have very conflicting emotions about the fact that, while year in year out, I keep my insurance policy up-to-date just in case, some of this appeal money will be used to help people who were probably financially better off than me but for whatever inexplicable reason don't have insurance cover.

It's Snake Pliskin said:

Julia,

To suggest they should move well within a week is not always practical. Where is a fifth, or a quarter of the state going to go?

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Well, Snake, I would just find a way to make it practical when the alternative could be dying. Where are people going to go? Wherever they like - Australia's a big country.

Having thought a bit more deeply about my last post I realise that part of my confusion comes from the fact that I have no idea how the millons of dollars that are collected in appeals like this are disbursed.
I'm not talking about the immediate aftermath like right now, everybody who has been caught up in this needs the same amount of help.
I'm more thinking about the next stage of things.
I also realise that if this money is used to get everybody short term housing then again everybody also needs the same amount of help.
I guess I don't recall ever hearing about the way that these type of huge donation funds have been disbursed in past situations which is what is causing my confusion about the way this money is spent and so I'm probably way out of order with my last post.

ghotib said:

We all seem to be getting more and more upset.

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I'm not upset, Ghoti. Just prefer not to have words put in my mouth that I'd never consider saying.

Most of Melbourne is within a couple of hundred kms of these fires. All the southern capitals are within a couple of hundred kms of bad bushfires within the last 10 years.

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OK. I apologise for the suggestion of 200kms. I'm not familiar with Melbourne or its surrounds. But it was an arbitrary figure - make it 500kms - or however far it takes to be out of range of hazard.

I'm not making any judgements about what anyone should do or could have done. I'm just very clear about what I would have done and that would be to protect life in any way possible.

Looks like they got one -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/13/2491328.htm

Julia said:

Well, Snake, I would just find a way to make it practical when the alternative could be dying. Where are people going to go? Wherever they like - Australia's a big country.

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Dunno about everyone else but i'd just get in my car and drive....how about that not so hard is it ?

Julia said:

Whoa there! I have not commented at all on the day of mourning.
Please don't attribute to me anything I have not said.

And then I've remarked on my cynicism about politicians. You may well think they are dewy eyed idealists, their only concern being for the well being of their loyal constituents. I just happen to believe otherwise.

See above. I have made no comment about any day of mourning.
But one thing I do hate is being told how I should feel, and when.

I'm not sure, Agentm, why you seem to have declared yourself the arbiter of the correct level of response and feeling in this sad affair. As Prospector observed earlier, sadness and grief is a very personal thing. We don't all get off on all the public stuff.

I've made no judgement on either event.

Again, you have appointed yourself the arbiter of other people's feelings.
As I said before, I completely respect your feelings and your right to do whatever you feel comfortable doing, but if other people see things differently or choose to take a less public stand, then that is also their right.

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Julia, it was I who made the comment about Rudd's cynical use of "days of mourning." Which I stand by.

I am not sure whether Agentm is more upset by my criticism of Rudd or by my doubts about the value of mass mourning. In either case it has become an obsession with him along with his attention seeking.

julia

down here we support the pm, and the entire effort..

up north you are miles from this,, and you simply dont get the gravity of this disaster one bit..

why level criticism of the pm for doing what absolutely needs to be done? why not support a day of mourning?

why not back the people and put aside petty criticisms..

in parliament they stand united, down here we do in victoria.. pity others dont..

but there always clowns who want to criticize..

dont expect my undying respect for support of the criticism.. this is not a time to blame, this is a time to show solidarity and stand behind the people affected,, this absolutely and 100% needed right now..

If there is one thing I have learned from these particular fires, it is that they are unlike anything that has ever been properly observed before. People who thought they were safe because they lived up to 50 kilometers away from the 'fire' were clearly not safe. Hubby has just returned from Victoria and he was told of six foot logs of burning tree limbs being hurled through the air tens of kilometers ahead of the fire. They were not embers, they were basically burning trees! You cannot survive such an 'attack' of mother nature. It was like a war front.

So, the question of stay or flight was clearly an impossible one to answer. So this begs the question, who should have evacuated? Probably most of country Victoria because all of this area was at risk. Is still at risk. Is that reasonable? And if everyone did run, the roads could not have coped with it, after we are not talking main highways, but country roads. And many of those who did try to escape, were caught by a wind change!

Maybe it was inevitable. Where people commune so close to heavily wooded areas, well, this is summer and this is Australia. And that is another question, as you mention Daisy.

SA was also at risk; my mother lives in a retirement village in the foothills; they have fire drills and they were issued with a red alert Saturday. The ones who were mobile were going to go to a Westfield complex and watch a movie and spend the day in airconditioning. When they received the red alert, they all decided to stay at home! Right in the red alert area WT! Did these 80 - 90 year olds see themselves saving their Units by standing in the ferocious heat with plastic hoses! People do stupid stupid things. Needless to say my mother received a dressing down from all the family. They would never have made it out had the worst happen - most of them dont drive!

But many of the victims in Victoria didnt make bad decisions like my mother, they were just caught up in a totally evil situation that no-one saw coming.

I heard also that the '000' operators are under extreme stress; they were taking calls from people as they were screaming as they died. So many people will be affected forever.

However I do think the commercial television stations have begun making this tragedy the reason for their existence.

Welcome to Melbourne.... if you can see it through the smoke haze. At least it only looks worse than it is. Apparently most fires are now under some sort of control. Unfortunately there are never any guarantees of what may come next. Especially with some sickos out there who repeatedly light new fires. The guy who was caught is "fragile" according to authorities. Sorry, but I know people who could also be considered "fragile" and they don't do criminal things like this. Are we likely to see him in a wheelchair breathing through an oxygen mask a la Skase, Bond etc?

Agentm said:

julia

down here we support the pm, ..

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Speak for yourself, there's a growing awareness that he's a complete tosser.

Agentm said:

julia

down here we support the pm, and the entire effort..

up north you are miles from this,, and you simply dont get the gravity of this disaster one bit..

why level criticism of the pm for doing what absolutely needs to be done? why not support a day of mourning?.

but there always clowns who want to criticize..

dont expect my undying respect for support of the criticism.. this is not a time to blame

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It was me,stupid, not Julia.

It is not for me to judge you for your obsessional belief in the value of organised mass mourning. However I suspect your grandstanding on the issue may be an attempt to divert attention away from the state of denial that you are in regarding the role that you and other opponents of controlled burning played in this tragedy.

The Royal Commission will sort this out in due course. No doubt they will take into consideration that in south-west WA, where they have controlled burning, they haven't lost a life in a bushfire in nearly half a century.

There is an ecumenical (I dont even know how to spell the word!) service in Adelaide tonight. Not exactly sure what good it will do.

AgentM, everyone of has had had their share of personal tragedy; and each has their own way of dealing with it. I just dont understand the National Day of Mourning - I think practical help in terms of donations, time to sort out clothes, etc etc is what people need right now. I spent time at the collection centre in Adelaide sorting through donations. Donated money to Red Cross, RSPCA and Daisy's group. I am fully aware of the sheer size of the tragedy as my Dad was born in western Victoria and we went there plenty of times. I am thinking of them right now without needing a National Day of Mourning to do that. Of course the victims themselves will need this, I just dont think that John Smith from SA or NT has the right to this. Just my thoughts.

Hey Mr Burns, no need to push that barrow here, time will sort that one out.

no..do not like the pm either
but read this...from a royal commission 70 years ago...eerily familar...but they only had horse and carts in those days....
but the weather was similar.......
only difference....today a huge build up of dry material, sitting there just waiting to fuel a fire....and a car or bike that can cover 100klms in an hour or more..to transport several arsonists compelled to burn it and everyone in it...
*** why no more deaths reported ??? stopped about tues or wed...
another blogger or another site has suggested the 181 is estimated from those in the cars....they have only started on the houses, with 9 in one house....could it run into the 1000's

and 2 firetrucks and 550 houses in marysville...odds stacked against them

http://www.theage.com.au/national/her-beauty-and-her-terror-20090214-87a2.html

Prospector said:

Hey Mr Burns, no need to push that barrow here, time will sort that one out.

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Just refuting that "down here we all support the pm"

Re spelling download this it's free -

http://www.iespell.com/

then just right click to spell check text input boxes on a webpage

I arrived in London a few days after the terrorist bombings. During that first week, there was a declared period of silence for one day at midday for one minute. (I think it was one minute)
This had nothing to do with me and I had even forgotten about it. When it happened, I was sitting at a table outside a pub and it took me a few seconds to realise what was going on. Everybody just stopped and stood still. I stood as a mark of respect and spent the time thinking about all the families whose loved ones would never come home again. I did not know any of those people but it was a very powerful moment. And if it helped any of those friends and families to know that they were in everybody’s thoughts then I’m glad I did it.
Maybe a whole day is too much. Maybe just one concentrated moment would have been better.

Calliope said:

The Royal Commission will sort this out in due course. No doubt they will take into consideration that in south-west WA, where they have controlled burning, they haven't lost a life in a bushfire in nearly half a century.

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There have been plenty of deaths here in the west due to bush fire!

http://home.iprimus.com.au/foo7/fireswa.html note the weather conditions

As for the south west control burns may be a factor but if you have lived in the area you would know that any day they get weather conditions like Victoria they will get the same results I fear control burns wont save them.

daisy said:

And if it helped any of those friends and families to know that they were in everybody’s thoughts then I’m glad I did it.
Maybe a whole day is too much. Maybe just one concentrated moment would have been better.

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I can understand the impact of a minute's silence, and I think that is a much better idea than a National Mourning Day. But surely with all the fund raising money pouring in, and the huge trucks that are coming in with clothing, etc etc; I guess I presume that they know we are thinking of them by doing something about it and not just 'thinking'? But then, maybe I am just a pragmatic poo-bar!

MrBurns said:

Re spelling download this it's free -

http://www.iespell.com/

then just right click to spell check text input boxes on a webpage

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Google Chrome, which is my preferred browser, has it's own spellcheck. If you use it you may be bemused that it does not recognised the word 'bushfire." You have to give it a tweak to change it from US English to UK English.