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Food scarcity

Sdajii

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please show me the facts about how farming soybeans to feed to cattle and pigs is more efficient than using that same farmland to grow soybeans for tofu and other human foods.

do a bit of research to find out how much amazon rainforest is being cleared to grow soybeans and other crops to feed cattle.

do you really think the majority of steaks, bacon and chicken are coming from wild game? or that it would be even possible to feed the world from wild game cost effectively.

and as for wild caught fish, well we already know that the oceans are struggling at their limit, we can’t really double the fish we take.
Amazing. You fight being pulled up for cherry picking by cherry picking. Great job, mate.
 

Sdajii

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firstly you are ignoring the fact that cattle farmed in arid areas still normally spend the last 6 months of their life being fattened up in feed lots where they eat grain and soybeans.

secondly, allowing the marginal areas to return to nature would actually be a good thing, as we wouldn’t need as much farm land.

Also, if there is enough water for a heard of cattle to eat and drink, then you have more than enough water to run modern protected cropping such as this,

You have clearly never been to a central Australian cattle station. That is, the type of station where the majority of Australia's beef comes from. That type of land absolutely can not be used to farm any plant crop. There are so many factors making plant crops impossible there.

It is true that a lot of cattle raised on land unusable for anything else ends up being fattened up before slaughter, but this still doesn't make them equivalent to the figures being used, and by no means holds any water with the 'veganism is efficient' argument, since it would be perfectly feasible to farm something like goats or kangaroos on that land without any fattening up. You are ignoring the fact that with extremely little input, a large amount of meat can be produced on land which can not be used to grow plants. Sure, we don't always do it efficiently (with plants either, mind you - do you think those ultra processed plant-based foods are made as efficiently as they could be?) but it absolutely is possible.
 

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Amazing. You fight being pulled up for cherry picking by cherry picking. Great job, mate.
cherry picking???

dude, 80% of Beef sold in Australian super markets comes from feedlots, 100% of chicken and 100% of pigs also are raised in feedlots.

It’s actually you missing the point, if we weren’t feeding all those animals crops, we wouldn’t need to farm the marginal land and it could be returned to nature.

And as I said, if you really really really want to use marginal land for some reason, you could using protected cropping.
 
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I spend a lot of time in Asia, it's interesting when you're in a small town in Asia you often eat almost exclusively local food, often all produced in that province and much of it within a day's commute
Reminds me of a time when I was staying in Northern Thailand, went to a tiny village restaurant where they had goodness knows what on the menu. After I left, I noticed a bit of a commotion coming from the bush, it was a few boys that had just trapped a small bird, I'm sure it was on the menu that evening ;-) Nothing goes to waste in these parts of Asia.
 
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From The Times of London today.

British farmers hit back at veganism yesterday as they showcased research that suggests eating tofu is worse for the planet than consuming most meats.

At a conference in London, the National Farmers Union (NFU) presented academics and scientists who argued that a meat-free diet could be unhealthy, create more emissions and damage the ecosystem.

One of the speakers, Graham McAuliffe, of the Rothamsted Institute, talked about unpublished work that suggests tofu, a protein substitute made from soy milk, has a worse impact on global warming than lamb, pork and chicken.


I don't mind carnivore or vegetarian food. I cannot cook. I usually wash up and am an entertaining dinner guest.

gg
 
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From The Times of London today.

British farmers hit back at veganism yesterday as they showcased research that suggests eating tofu is worse for the planet than consuming most meats.

At a conference in London, the National Farmers Union (NFU) presented academics and scientists who argued that a meat-free diet could be unhealthy, create more emissions and damage the ecosystem.

One of the speakers, Graham McAuliffe, of the Rothamsted Institute, talked about unpublished work that suggests tofu, a protein substitute made from soy milk, has a worse impact on global warming than lamb, pork and chicken.


I don't mind carnivore or vegetarian food. I cannot cook. I usually wash up and am an entertaining dinner guest.

gg
Talking about an unpublished work is no more than spreading rumours. It's pretty underhand really.
 

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Especially as they ain't "woke" I suppose. ;)

gg
If you believe the meat producers lobbyists unpublished research, you probably also believed big Tobaccos lobbyists back in the day.

Hey, I heard 7 out of 10 Doctors smoke camel brand cigarettes, it must mean they are healthy right???
 
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If you believe the meat producers lobbyists unpublished research, you probably also believed big Tobaccos lobbyists back in the day.

Hey, I heard 7 out of 10 Doctors smoke camel brand cigarettes, it must mean they are healthy right???
I'll leave this conversation to you, I'm not that invested in it other than to make the odd observation or remark. Neither side would make me break stride to cross the road in their defence.

I do enjoy vegan and carnivore food. Whether the UK Farmer's Union is correct or not you and others can argue in the slow cooker of debate.

It was published in a paper of record, and I quoted it. Google it for the original article but it's behind a firewall.

gg
 

Sdajii

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cherry picking???

dude, 80% of Beef sold in Australian super markets comes from feedlots, 100% of chicken and 100% of pigs also are raised in feedlots.

It’s actually you missing the point, if we weren’t feeding all those animals crops, we wouldn’t need to farm the marginal land and it could be returned to nature.

And as I said, if you really really really want to use marginal land for some reason, you could using protected cropping.
Deep breaths, mate. You're arguing against points I only made in your own imagination.

I said the figures were false because they are. In your imagination it seems I claimed something like meat on average being as efficient to produce as plants. I didn't make that claim in the real world. If you must argue with your imaginary Sdaji, please do so only in your imagination.
 

Sdajii

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Reminds me of a time when I was staying in Northern Thailand, went to a tiny village restaurant where they had goodness knows what on the menu. After I left, I noticed a bit of a commotion coming from the bush, it was a few boys that had just trapped a small bird, I'm sure it was on the menu that evening ;-) Nothing goes to waste in these parts of Asia.
Even in northern Thailand they talk about how people in east Thailand and Laos are crazy and eat anything. In east Thailand and Laos, like everywhere else I've been, I try to find as many new foods as possible and have never found anything I wouldn't eat, however, in east Thailand and Laos (and many other places) I've grossed out and surprised locals when they see me eating things they won't. They do waste some food.
 
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Pity we can't just use any form of energy to run humans.

If we could be electrically powered then it would be less than a 10% increase in power consumption.

Or if we used petrol then just one litre contains enough energy to run an adult human for 4 days.

Not that I recommend connecting yourself to mains electricity or drinking petrol indeed both are sure to kill you. :2twocents
 

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I said the figures were false because they are. In your imagination it seems I claimed something like meat on average being as efficient to produce as plants. I didn't make that claim in the real world. If you must argue with your imaginary Sdaji, please do so only in your imagination.
The figures aren’t false though, when you look at the reality of 80% of the meat Australians consume coming from feed lots.

the figures are only false compared to your imaginary meat production that doesn’t involve feedlots.

when your imaginary kangaroo and wombat farming system in up and running let me know.
 
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They do waste some food.
I wonder if that is because of religious beliefs.
Another Thai story : I was at at Expats house watching an Australian wildlife documentary, his wife (from Isan region) was watching very intently, when the doco was showing the unusual features of the Platypus she turned to us and said "What do they taste like"
 

Sdajii

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The figures aren’t false though, when you look at the reality of 80% of the meat Australians consume coming from feed lots.

the figures are only false compared to your imaginary meat production that doesn’t involve feedlots.

when your imaginary kangaroo and wombat farming system in up and running let me know.
The figures are false in that they are based on cherry-picked examples. Yes, on average, plant calories given to humans take less resources than meat calories, but the figures given are an exaggeration of that figure, and further, there is a false implication that all plant calories are better than all meat calories, which is not at all the case.

I never mentioned wombats, and while I do that that farming kangaroos would be extremely efficient, I understand the difference between hypothetical and imaginary, and unlike you haven't confused them with each other, or with reality.
 

Sdajii

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I wonder if that is because of religious beliefs.
Another Thai story : I was at at Expats house watching an Australian wildlife documentary, his wife (from Isan region) was watching very intently, when the doco was showing the unusual features of the Platypus she turned to us and said "What do they taste like"
Not to do with religious beliefs in most cases; mostly due to apathy, squeamishness or incorrect assumption of inedibility (much the same as with western people and most others). As an example, when we were emptying the insect traps in Laos I was wanting to eat a lot of the insects they were throwing away or feeding to the chickens. For some reason they thought some of the safe ones were poisonous, and they just didn't seem interested in eating some of the others, or they were squeamish about them. After a few days they didn't try to stop me eating the ones I wanted to. I found in some provinces people happily ate some types which in other areas they wouldn't touch. I've almost never seen anyone in these regions get the marrow out of bones, even though in other parts of the world it is a normal practice, and indeed marrow is the most nutritious part of an animal. Even things like highly nutritious fish skin of some of the most commonly eaten species is commonly discarded in places like north and east Thailand and Laos, and they think I'm strange for wanting to eat it. Western people are particularly squeamish and limited in their ability to recognise what it edible so they often make the mistake of thinking these people will eat anything, but it's just that they eat a lot more than western people do. There's nothing religious about not eating fish skin, various insects, marrow, etc etc. Some of them will avoid eating things like elephant etc. for quasi religious reasons. Things like cat and turtle are avoided by some for quasi religious reasons but most of them in the most food-adventurous regions I've hung out in will eat these things, though they'll often initially deny it to foreigners and only admit to it after they know the foreigner is happy to eat them too. In northern Laos I asked a room full of people aged between about 8 and 50 if they'd eaten cat. They all said no. I pretended to believe them and started talking about how delicious cat was and told stories about how I'd eaten cat in various situations, including in a nearby village when someone's wife cooked it and served it to me as a practical joke, telling me it was pork. I recognised the flavour and said it was cat, they were surprised I knew and didn't care. After telling that story a few people in the room admitted to it and we started talking about how good it was etc etc, and shortly afterwards everyone in the room admitted they'd eaten it.

Pretty funny she'd ask what platypus tastes like! I wouldn't kill one to eat it and I probably will never taste platypus, but in the absolute freak event that I saw one get killed by a falling tree branch or something, I'd definitely cook it up!
 
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Pretty funny she'd ask what platypus tastes like! I wouldn't kill one to eat it and I probably will never taste platypus, but in the absolute freak event that I saw one get killed by a falling tree branch or something, I'd definitely cook it up!
I think it may have been because the Platypus was the most different looking (and unknown) creature in the doco, they had Kangaroos, Koalas etc. but many Thais already know about them.

Their are a myriad of reasons for eating or not eating certain types of foods, as you have explained, a couple of other reasons are for luck, as medicine or even as an aphrodisiac. Each to their own I suppose
 

Sdajii

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I think it may have been because the Platypus was the most different looking (and unknown) creature in the doco, they had Kangaroos, Koalas etc. but many Thais already know about them.

Their are a myriad of reasons for eating or not eating certain types of foods, as you have explained, a couple of other reasons are for luck, as medicine or even as an aphrodisiac. Each to their own I suppose
Yeah, a belief in karma is part of it. Some South East Asians have told me that we should never kill animals, so I shouldn't eat things like cats and turtles and elephants. When I point out that they have already eaten duck, chicken, pork etc with me, they say things like 'the gods gave us these animals to be eaten' (about as irrational as western people saying much the same thing when comparing, say, pigs and dogs). I am very fond of snakes and they often tell me it's especially important for me never to eat snakes as this would be bad karma. I'm actually pretty fond of chickens though, I mean, they're really quite comical birds and they can be quite friendly and get very attached to people. I've hand raised them and had them really quite attached to me, but hey, they were unfortunate enough to have been given to us from a divine source to be eaten, right? Not as unfortunate enough as the super rare ones which get hunted to extinction because their horns or scales or penis or whatever is a *totally genuine and effective* remedy for impotence in wealthy Chinese men, I suppose.

For the record, as much as I've never met anyone who can eat a wider array of food than I can and I've only met 3 others who can approximately match it (all Australians, surprisingly, and this is despite the fact that the majority of people I meet are not Australian), I draw the line at anything endangered and deliberately killed, or anything which crosses my ethical line in terms of cruelty.

I haven't eaten koalas but I'd gladly eat them from one of the pest populations. I expect they'd taste fantastic. No idea what platypus would taste like! Most likely I'll never eat either, but if I see the car in front of me send a koala to Heaven I'll gladly take the opportunity.
 
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