Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.0%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.5%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 80 40.0%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 38 19.0%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 25 12.5%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.0%
  • Total voters
    200
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Knobby22 said:
Tesla .... now working with Lidar (after a change of heart by Musk) so probably understand the problems.

Would have liked the Waymo Level 4 system in the test. They have much more real life experience and would have shat it in I believe.
Click to expand...

Unless I have missed some recent news, Tesla only use LiDAR as a calibration tool to help its AI learn depth perception.

LiDAR stands for Light Detecting and Ranging – essentially using lasers to measure distances. A laser pulse is sent out, and the time it takes to return is measured – providing extremely accurate distance measurements.​
​
Tesla uses it exactly how it's described – they use it to gather ground-truth data. This data is then used to feed Tesla’s Full Self Driving system – which helps validate its vision-only system's accuracy. LiDAR provides very accurate measurements to help ensure that FSD’s perception of space is accurate – and is only used by Tesla to ensure that its AI technology which is the brains of FSD is capable of accurately interpreting depth from just visual data.​

While Tesla doesn't use LiDAR in their production vehicles for self-driving, they do use it for gathering ground truth data to validate their vision-based system. This means they use LiDAR sensors to create highly accurate 3D maps of the environment, which are then used to train and refine their AI models that rely on cameras for perception.

Here's a more detailed explanation:
  • Ground Truth Validation:
    Tesla uses LiDAR to obtain precise measurements of distance and depth, which serve as a benchmark to assess the accuracy of their camera-based system.

  • Refining AI Models:
    By comparing the LiDAR data with the camera's perception, Tesla can identify areas where the camera system needs improvement and refine its AI algorithms accordingly.

  • Vision-Only Approach:
    Tesla's long-term goal is to develop a fully autonomous driving system that relies solely on cameras and other sensors, without needing LiDAR for regular operation.

  • Scalability:
    Tesla's reliance on cameras is driven by the desire for a scalable solution, meaning their self-driving technology can adapt to new environments without requiring extensive pre-mapping of every location.

  • Cost and Aesthetics:
    Elon Musk has previously stated that LiDAR is a "crutch" and that relying on it for self-driving is a "fool's errand" due to cost, complexity, and aesthetic concerns.

  • Tesla's Use of Luminar Sensors:
    Tesla has purchased LiDAR sensors from Luminar for ground truth validation, demonstrating their commitment to refining their vision-based system.
Click to expand...

www.notateslaapp.com

Tesla Vehicles Spotted With LiDAR: What Do They Use It For?

Tesla uses LIDAR for ground-truth validation and testing of FSD's depth perception and distance measuring.
www.notateslaapp.com www.notateslaapp.com
 
JohnDe said:
Unless I have missed some recent news, Tesla only use LiDAR as a calibration tool to help its AI learn depth perception.

LiDAR stands for Light Detecting and Ranging – essentially using lasers to measure distances. A laser pulse is sent out, and the time it takes to return is measured – providing extremely accurate distance measurements.​
​
Tesla uses it exactly how it's described – they use it to gather ground-truth data. This data is then used to feed Tesla’s Full Self Driving system – which helps validate its vision-only system's accuracy. LiDAR provides very accurate measurements to help ensure that FSD’s perception of space is accurate – and is only used by Tesla to ensure that its AI technology which is the brains of FSD is capable of accurately interpreting depth from just visual data.​



www.notateslaapp.com

Tesla Vehicles Spotted With LiDAR: What Do They Use It For?

Tesla uses LIDAR for ground-truth validation and testing of FSD's depth perception and distance measuring.
www.notateslaapp.com www.notateslaapp.com
Click to expand...
Yes, I heard they are only using it in limited ways also along with the cameras due to cost.
If they can get it working together they might have a big advantage on the competition.
 
Knobby22 said:
Yes, I heard they are only using it in limited ways also along with the cameras due to cost.
If they can get it working together they might have a big advantage on the competition.
Click to expand...

Tesla are not trying to get their FSD working with both cameras &LiDAR. They are using LiDAR to teach the AI how to learn to accurately interpret (judge) depth from just visual data. Just like a child learns to walk and judge distance.

There will be no LiDAR on consumer based Tesla's
 
JohnDe said:
Tesla are not trying to get their FSD working with both cameras &LiDAR. They are using LiDAR to teach the AI how to learn to accurately interpret (judge) depth from just visual data. Just like a child learns to walk and judge distance.

There will be no LiDAR on consumer based Tesla's
Click to expand...
Not what I heard.
We shall see.
 
JohnDe said:
Like I said, I may have missed the latest news on this.

Can you post a link or send me the info you read or heard?
Click to expand...
I can't remember where I heard it.
Possibly through the engineering community.

It's just the litigation. They have had issues with phantom breaking.
The vision has to work out what is ahead, sometimes with dirty cameras, fog, glare, etc. The Ai has to recognise elements in the environment when Lidar would just tell you its there.

Also, lidar is becoming cheaper and less conspicuous. Maybe I am wrong but I really can't see its partial use not happening. I understand Musk pushing the envelope, if he can achieve it he will be a legend again I just think it's a big ask.
 
Coz videos take a long time to watch. Only tesla shareholders allowed. more likely to keep quiet if something goes wrong ;)

  • Tesla’s Robotaxi service is now live in the San Francisco area.
  • This is the second city where Tesla’s driverless Model Ys can now be hailed, after Austin, Texas.
  • That said, because Tesla doesn’t have all the necessary regulatory approvals in California, San Francisco Robotaxis have safety drivers behind the wheel.
Tesla has expanded its Robotaxi service to a second city today, opening its ride-hailing service to a limited part of San Francisco. The driverless taxis first went live in Austin, Texas, last month.

Just like in Austin, though, the service area in San Francisco is quite small, as shown in the official image posted earlier today by the automaker’s AI arm on its official X page. Furthermore, not everyone will be able to hail a Tesla Robotaxi in the Bay Area, as access is currently on an invite-only basis. Tesla owners, influencers and investors are among the first to get invites.

insideevs.com

Tesla Robotaxi Expands To San Francisco–With Drivers Behind The Wheel

It’s more taxi than robotaxi, at least for now.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
 
A little off topic.

Caught up with my friend that I sold my Tesla M3 to, he loves the whole package, including how it has helped him cope with driving as he goes through the hassle of Multiple sclerosis. The only issue has been his neighbours.

The neighbor and his husband have been good friends since they moved in 20 years ago, but they did not take well to my friend having a Tesla in the driveway. They gave him a blast about supporting Musk, a "right wing nut job", that supports Trump... blah blah.

Funny thing, they both drive VW's, I wonder if they know the contribution to WWII and the holocaust.

Oh well, at least my friend is able to drive safely again. He has lost the feeling in both feet and has trouble walking and feeling brake and accelerator pressure. Special physio helps but each week I see him slowly struggle. The amazing thing about him, he has not stopped smiling and is positive every day.


 
Some questions that come to mind -
  • How long will the Chinese government continue to subsidise their EV industry?
  • When it stops, will all the manufacturers be able to survive in real world cost structures?
  • If some manufacturers go broke who covers the warranty and parts supply?

The European Union made headlines last year when it applied tariffs of up to 35.3 per cent on Chinese-built electric vehicles sold in the region, after an in-house investigation concluded they were being unfairly subsidised by the Chinese government to make them cheaper to buy in Europe. It said they are "causing a threat of economic injury to EU BEV [battery-electric] vehicle producers."​

Hyundai has cast doubt on "how long" Chinese car makers can continue to undercut rivals by thousands of dollars, amid allegations in Europe that the Chinese government is unfairly subsidising the production of vehicles for export markets.

The CEO of the South Korean car brand in Australia, Don Romano, told media there is only "some small advantage" on price for Hyundai to build cars in China for local showrooms.

Yet Hyundai's electric cars are undercut by tens of thousands of dollars by a new wave of Chinese brands, from more established names such as BYD and MG, to newer faces Geely and Leapmotor.

"The real issue when you talk about competitiveness is probably when you look at Chinese EVs, and the question I'd have is how long can they sustain that low price, when we're all using the same materials and the same equipment?" said the Hyundai boss.

"When you look at the same systems that are used to build these cars, the same equipment and the same materials, eventually it comes to an equilibrium, where we're all having it on the same cost factor that we're going to have to all live with.

"And then the pricing really just comes down to what it takes to distribute the cars and market the cars."

Pressed on whether he believes Chinese car brands are selling vehicles at a loss to claim sales, Romano said: "I don't know how they do it, other than I read the same things you do about government intervention and support.

"All I do know is that long-term, this all equals out.

"Whether it's cost of living, whether it's manufacturing, employment costs, eventually it's one big world that we all live in, we're all going to be living in the same economic environment.

"Whatever advantage one country has over another – I've seen this happen in my 40 years, where it used to be cheaper to build in one country than another, and then suddenly it's just as expensive.

"I think that's ultimately going to happen globally, and whether that's in my lifetime or not that I can't answer, but for right now it appears they have the advantage."

The European Union made headlines last year when it applied tariffs of up to 35.3 per cent on Chinese-built electric vehicles sold in the region, after an in-house investigation concluded they were being unfairly subsidised by the Chinese government to make them cheaper to buy in Europe.

said they are "causing a threat of economic injury to EU BEV [battery-electric] vehicle producers."

Tariffs on Chinese-made vehicles ramped up in the US under President Donald Trump, but it was his predecessor, Joe Biden, who quadrupled an import duty on Chinese EVs from 25 per cent to 100 per cent in 2024, citing "unfair trade practices" and "artificially low-priced" exports.

Among Australia's cheapest new electric vehicles is the Chinese-made Geely EX5, an electric mid-size SUV priced from $40,990 plus on-road costs – less than $2000 dearer than a similarly-sized, base-model Hyundai Tucson, despite being battery-electric.

BYD offers the Dolphin electric hatch from $29,990 plus on-road costs, with a longer list of equipment and superior driving range to the smaller $39,000 Hyundai Inster electric city SUV.

"I think there's always going to be someone that's cheaper that can build a car for less money somewhere, and if you look through the rear-view mirror, you're going to see them there," Romano told media.

"I'd prefer to look through the windshield and go forward.

"I also look at some of the best practices by some of the manufacturers out there that have succeeded in building a strong brand and producing really great products at a higher level. That's where we need to look."

Hyundai's sibling brand Kia has embraced Chinese production for Australian showrooms, sourcing the Tesla Model Y-sized EV5 electric SUV from a factory 300km north of Shanghai.

It has helped the brand offer the vehicle from $56,770 before on-road costs, compared to $72,590 plus on-roads for the larger, better-equipped but Korean-built EV6.

Hyundai fields one rival to both vehicles in Australia, the $69,800 Ioniq 5. It sells a vehicle based on the Kia EV5 in China as the Elexio, but it is yet to be confirmed for local showrooms.

"You'd think so, but no," Romano said, when asked if it would be cheaper for Hyundai to build cars in China.

Asked cryptically about a Chinese-made electric SUV akin to the Elexio, he said: "Well, you've got an EV5 out there, right? It's made in China. Is it cheap? No, but does it sell? Yeah.

"It depends on what you're demanding out of the manufacturer, and I think that's what it comes down to.

"And whether that's in Korea or China, again with our agreements and the way we're producing, I think there may be some small advantage, but that could be offset by the distribution channel. It depends on how long it takes to ship.


"[If] we're bringing cars in from India, you can imagine the cost associated with that.

"Then there's other issues, like you find out even at the ports where they actually take them, sometimes there's dust and issues that you didn't have to deal with in Korea or in China. So all these factors come into play."
Click to expand...
 
JohnDe said:
Some questions that come to mind -
  • How long will the Chinese government continue to subsidise their EV industry?
  • When it stops, will all the manufacturers be able to survive in real world cost structures?
  • If some manufacturers go broke who covers the warranty and parts supply?

The European Union made headlines last year when it applied tariffs of up to 35.3 per cent on Chinese-built electric vehicles sold in the region, after an in-house investigation concluded they were being unfairly subsidised by the Chinese government to make them cheaper to buy in Europe. It said they are "causing a threat of economic injury to EU BEV [battery-electric] vehicle producers."​
Click to expand...
long enough to ensure any competition is dead?
 
qldfrog said:
long enough to ensure any competition is dead?
Click to expand...
Exactly, China is running a huge trade surplus so will easily be able to outlast Western subsidies, so the West subsidising their manufacturing wont work.

That is why adding a tax to negate the subsidy is really the only option, if the price of the Chinese car with the tariff, is the same price as the home grown product.

It then is up to the manufacturers, to ensure their product is more attractive to the purchaser than the Chinese product, which will cost the same.
It might not be efficient, but it is the only option, unless China agree to a level playing field by not subsidising their product.
 
sptrawler said:
Exactly, China is running a huge trade surplus so will easily be able to outlast Western subsidies, so the West subsidising their manufacturing wont work.

That is why adding a tax to negate the subsidy is really the only option, if the price of the Chinese car with the tariff, is the same price as the home grown product.

It then is up to the manufacturers, to ensure their product is more attractive to the purchaser than the Chinese product, which will cost the same.
It might not be efficient, but it is the only option, unless China agree to a level playing field by not subsidising their product.
Click to expand...
even wo subsidizing, it will not be a level playing field...
We are structurally uncompetitive
 
qldfrog said:
even wo subsidizing, it will not be a level playing field...
We are structurally uncompetitive
Click to expand...
That's true, but people still buy badges eg BMW, Merc, Ford etc, to give them any chance of competing they either have to drop their input costs or raise the Chinese input cost, if China wont do it the West doesn't have many options other than more and more unemployment and less and less income.
 
sptrawler said:
the West doesn't have many options other than more and more unemployment and less and less income.
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Not really really, the West can just divert their Labour and capital to more productive industries, and use the profits from those industries to purchase the other stuff at lower prices.
 
Value Collector said:
Not really really, the West can just divert their Labour and capital to more productive industries, and use the profits from those industries to purchase the other stuff at lower prices.
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If you look at it from a purely commercial aspect, you may be correct, from a strategic aspect, when China destroys all the West's manufacturing capability they can dictate terms on what the West gets and when.

Not a good outcome for us.

What "more productive" industries do you suggest that the West invest in ?
 
SirRumpole said:
1. If you look at it from a purely commercial aspect, you may be correct, from a strategic aspect, when China destroys all the West's manufacturing capability they can dictate terms on what the West gets and when.

2.Not a good outcome for us.

3. What "more productive" industries do you suggest that the West invest in ?
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1. In the system I describe, all countries become more reliant on each other, and its probably a safer would than having super powers that don't really need each other.

2. Why isn't it good for us? we get to supply ourselves and other countries with all the goods and services we are good at producing and get to import the ones we aren't good at producing in return. There is a reason a Butcher buys his bread from the baker rather than try and bake it himself.

3. The list is endless and we are already investing in them all the time, and it happens automatically, capital and labour will naturally flow to where it produces the most value, we don't have to command it a central government. The global economy is so diverse and industries so specialised you can't even understand some peoples job titles of products they make/supply.
 
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