Electric cars?

[SirRumpole]

1. In the system I describe, all countries become more reliant on each other, and its probably a safer would than having super powers that don't really need each other.

2. Why isn't it good for us? we get to supply ourselves and other countries with all the goods and services we are good at producing and get to import the ones we aren't good at producing in return. There is a reason a Butcher buys his bread from the baker rather than try and bake it himself.

3. The list is endless and we are already investing in them all the time, and it happens automatically, capital and labour will naturally flow to where it produces the most value, we don't have to command it a central government. The global economy is so diverse and industries so specialised you can't even understand some peoples job titles of products they make/supply.

and it happens automatically, capital and labour will naturally flow to where it produces the most value,

Sorry, it doesn't happen "automatically", but as the result of subsidies , protectionism and a suppressed workforce.

 

[Value Collector]

Sorry, it doesn't happen "automatically", but as the result of subsidies , protectionism and a suppressed workforce.

No, those are things we use to force capital and labour into the areas that aren’t naturally good fits for us, or new industries that need a bit of a kick start.

You don’t need a subsidy to get capitalists to put money into areas they know are going to be winning industries for them.

if an Australian Car maker had a competitive advantage that meant it was going to easily earn a fair return on the invested capital you wouldn’t need a subsidy to attract a factory, it would just come here automatically.

 

[SirRumpole]

No, those are things we use to force capital and labour into the areas that aren’t naturally good fits for us, or new industries that need a bit of a kick start.

You don’t need a subsidy to get capitalists to put money into areas they know are going to be winning industries for them.

if an Australian Car maker had a competitive advantage that meant it was going to easily earn a fair return on the invested capital you wouldn’t need a subsidy to attract a factory, it would just come here automatically.

No, that is how China does business. It subsidises its manufacturing in order to flood world markets with cheap goods and put the West out of the manufacturing game.

The world is ruled by politics not economics.

 

[farmerge]

No, that is how China does business. It subsidises its manufacturing in order to flood world markets with cheap goods and put the West out of the manufacturing game.

The world is ruled by politics not economics.

And generally the world toes the line and marches to the drum beat.

 

[sptrawler]

Probably got a really big fat guy to drive them

Believe it or not, everything makes a difference with an EV, as soon as any extra load goes on the battery, the range takes a hit.
That's the down side of low energy density, switch on the wipers the range drops, put on the lights the range drops, put on the a/c the range drops a lot. Lol

 

[JohnDe]

Believe it or not, everything makes a difference with an EV, as soon as any extra load goes on the battery, the range takes a hit.
That's the down side of low energy density, switch on the wipers the range drops, put on the lights the range drops, put on the a/c the range drops a lot. Lol

That goes for all fuel types. An ICEV has a battery which is charged by an alternator, the A/C system has a compressor, extra people in the car increases the weight, the faster you travel the more wind resistance.

 

[Value Collector]

No, that is how China does business. It subsidises its manufacturing in order to flood world markets with cheap goods and put the West out of the manufacturing game.

The world is ruled by politics not economics.

If they want to subsidise their industries and essential pay for us to get discounts, let them. But we couldn’t even compete in car making with Japan and Korea, so either was we weren’t going to have a car industry.

No government is large enough to ignore economics without killing itself, that is why the Soviet Union failed.

 

[Value Collector]

Believe it or not, everything makes a difference with an EV, as soon as any extra load goes on the battery, the range takes a hit.
That's the down side of low energy density, switch on the wipers the range drops, put on the lights the range drops, put on the a/c the range drops a lot. Lol

It’s that the same with petrol cars?

To the extent that you can use any electric current in a petrol car without affecting its range, is only because it’s got a constant load on the engine from the alternator that is going to waste if you don’t use it.

Eg if you turn you wipers on in a petrol car you are using an electrical load that comes from the engine.

People say petrol cars are better because the heater uses waste heat, but that’s not good, that means heat is being wasted all the time. The fact you get to use some of it 10% of the time is not good.

 

[SirRumpole]

If they want to subsidise their industries and essential pay for us to get discounts, let them.

Short term pain, long term gain.

That's the essential difference between Communists and Capitalists, the Communists look long, the Capitalists look short.

China's long term goal is to control global manufacturing.

 

[JohnDe]

I started following these two on their first road trip, they have travelled everywhere, first with a Model 3 and now the Y

Tesla driver's 'freaky' 2% battery moment on Aussie road trip as real EV ranges examined
Not unlike petrol cars, there are plenty of factors that can impact the expected driving range of EVs.

When Tom and his wife became empty nesters, they decided to sell their home on the NSW Central Coast and take their newly purchased electric vehicle on a road trip. More than a year later, they're still going.

"We had sort of stayed with some friends and relatives a little bit here and there, but by and large, we just kept road tripping," Tom told Yahoo News while travelling through South Australia. The couple did more than 100,000 kilometres in their Model 3 before upgrading to a Tesla Model Y this year.

Tom was never a 'car person' and always relied on his motorbike as his main source of personal transport, but says he has enjoyed the transition from petrol stations to power points.

When meeting grey nomads and other travellers on the road, he says he often gets questions about the difficulty of charging, but says despite common concerns in the community about a lack of charging infrastructure and potential range anxiety, he's never had an issue.

Well, almost never.


The couple have spent many months on the road in the last two years. Source: Tesla Tripping/Facebook

While driving from Pimba to Coober Pedy in central South Australia late last month, the couple left with 97 per cent battery for the nearly four-hour journey. After experiencing a particularly slow charging station at a roadhouse in Glendambo, they decided to press on with the car's system predicting eight per cent battery level on arrival at their destination.

"It says we're going to get there with eight per cent, and as we headed off the predicted range dropped from eight to seven, to six, to five," Tom recalled.

"I looked at the [onboard system] and it says there's a headwind, and so that's eaten into our range."

Driving against the wind was draining the battery more than usual.

"It was a bit freaky seeing the percentage drop like that. And we don't normally have that, so that was a bit unusual."

In the end, they made it to their next charger with just two per cent left in the car's battery after slowing their speed, at the car's behest, to about 90km/h, which helped conserve the remaining power.

"In terms of range, this was the toughest leg of our trip," Tom wrote on social media, where the couple blog their travels under the name Tesla Tripping. "No range anxiety AT ALL," he joked.

True driving ranges of EVs in the spotlight​

The true range of electric vehicles has been in the headlines this month after an investigation by the Australian Automobile Association sought to test the advertised range of major brands like Tesla and BYD versus the real-world reality. The study was part of a $14 million Real-World Testing Program to see how cars (including petrol and hybrid models) really performed in the wild.

When it came to EVs — including testing of a Tesla Model 3 and Model Y — the program found they didn't quite perform the same as in the lab. The Model 3 was able to travel 513km in the lab, but only 441km on real roads, a 14 per cent difference. Meanwhile, the Model Y had an eight per cent difference, with the car hitting 533km in the lab and 490km outside.

The car with the biggest differential was a BYD Atto 3, which recorded a 23 per cent decline in real-world range.

Australian Electric Vehicle Association national president Chris Jones blamed the difference in battery range on multiple factors, including high or low temperatures, headwinds, steep terrain, and whether the driver uses air conditioning or heating features during their journey.

Swinburne Professor of Future Urban Mobility, Hussein Dia, said such testing was important for consumers to understand exactly what they're buying.

"Real-world testing helps bridge the gap between marketing promises and the reality on the road, giving drivers the confidence to plan their trips," he said. "Lower real-world ranges aren’t a deal breaker. Savvy drivers can use this data together with trip planning and an understanding of conditions to travel with confidence."


Tom says businesses and venues are usually happy to let him use an outlet to plug his car in. Source: Tesla Tripping/Facebook

Tesla owner says trust the car​

As for Tom, he says the trove of information provided by his Tesla — including power predictions, the location and availability of the nearest chargers and advice on preserving battery — means he can simply trust the car.

And in most instances, he says businesses and venues are usually happy to let him use an outlet to plug in if he wants to top up.

"We've learned to trust the car pretty well." he told Yahoo. "There are all those things that affect [range] — everything from temperature to incline, to wind, to how aggressively you drive, but the car generally factors all that in... and we generally trust the predicted arrival percentage. But occasionally, like the other day, there was an unexpected wind."

For Tom, it's clear EVs are the future and for someone who has spent a lifetime riding motorbikes which often lack a fuel gauge, there's simply nothing to be anxious about.

"I've had far more range anxiety on my motorbike than I've had in this car. And the main reason for that is on the motorbike the indication you get that you're running out is it starts sputtering, and you flick to the reserve tank," he said.

Tesla Tripping

Tesla Tripping. 1,070 likes · 359 talking about this. We are road tripping, in our standard range Tesla, through Australia, and a couple of months through Europe.

www.facebook.com

 

[Value Collector]

Short term pain, long term gain.

That's the essential difference between Communists and Capitalists, the Communists look long, the Capitalists look short.

The only communists that have survived are the ones that became capitalist.

We have seen Tesla develop a car company from scratch pretty fast, if the Chinese really are subsidising their car industry, they will either sell us discounted cars forever, or if they stop the discounts new car companies will start in the west or the older ones will be revived.

As I said they can’t subsidise the whole economy with out bankrupting them selves eventually. In reality every time the subsidise one industry they are holding back another, and we can compete in the one they hold back.

 

[SirRumpole]

The only communists that have survived are the ones that became capitalist.

We have seen Tesla develop a car company from scratch pretty fast, if the Chinese really are subsidising their car industry, they will either sell us discounted cars forever, or if they stop the discounts new car companies will start in the west or the older ones will be revived.

As I said they can’t subsidise the whole economy with out bankrupting them selves eventually. In reality every time the subsidise one industry they are holding back another, and we can compete in the one they hold back.

I ask before what you think the West should be investing in.

Care to supply some suggestions?

 

[farmerge]

I ask before what you think the West should be investing in.

Care to supply some suggestions?

@SirRumpole Not wishing to buy into this discussion, but what Australia does and does well is educate ship loads of overseas students at our universities so they can then return to their country of birth and become the bright lights of the future so as to screw the rest of the world in their chosen fields of expertise.

 

[Value Collector]

I ask before what you think the West should be investing in.

Care to supply some suggestions?

Everything we already invest in with the limited Labour and capital we have available, we are already doing it. Surely you don't need me to spoon feed you this one.

Basically the country will deploy all available capital in order of priority based on the return it generates and the need and it will skip the industries where its more effective to buy in the products. It doesn't require central command, all investors individually make choices about where they see opportunities and they deploy the capital and labour they can muster together accordingly.

As a quick example,

1. A nation needs food so if it have lots of available farmland it will deploy labour and capital (L&C) to develop that farmland, until it produces enough food for itself and what it can profitably export, it will also deploy L&C into processing that food eg turning wheat into weetbix, soy beans into tofu etc etc for itself and any export markets it can sell to profitably.

2. A nation needs housing and other buildings, so its going to deploy L&C into construction, and producing any construction materials that are either to heavy to import or materials it has a competitive advantage in, but will skip the products it can import cheaply. for example it may import nuts and bolts , but will invest in quarries and cement manufacturing etc

3. a nation needs clothes, so it will invest in clothing industry, but will skip parts of the industry that it can't compete in, for example it might invest in the design and distribution infrastructure and some limited manufacturing, but will also buy in products it can get cheaply.

4. the nation needs healthcare, it will invest in many parts of the healthcare industry, including educating doctors etc, but may by in some equipment.

it goes on and on and on, investing across the entire economy, but skipping the parts of the industries that we are not competitive in or are difficult to out source. and doing this will will use most of our labour and capital and maximise our productivity.

 

[sptrawler]

That goes for all fuel types. An ICEV has a battery which is charged by an alternator, the A/C system has a compressor, extra people in the car increases the weight, the faster you travel the more wind resistance.

It’s that the same with petrol cars?

To the extent that you can use any electric current in a petrol car without affecting its range, is only because it’s got a constant load on the engine from the alternator that is going to waste if you don’t use it.

Eg if you turn you wipers on in a petrol car you are using an electrical load that comes from the engine.

People say petrol cars are better because the heater uses waste heat, but that’s not good, that means heat is being wasted all the time. The fact you get to use some of it 10% of the time is not good.

Don't take offence, I wasn't knocking it, I was stating a fact, that people who are contemplating buying an EV should be aware of and take into consideration when choosing the right EV for them.

The difference with an EV and an ICE, is as I said, the energy density of the fuel source. The EV has to carry a very heavy fuel source compared to the EV to mitigate the disparity in energy density.
That's also a reason for some car manufacturers offer two battery chemistries.
It is no different to why companies offer petrol and diesel models and people should select according to their requirements.



.

 

[Value Collector]

Don't take offence, I wasn't knocking it, I was stating a fact, that people who are contemplating buying an EV should be aware of and take into consideration when choosing the right EV for them.

The difference with an EV and an ICE, is as I said, the energy density of the fuel source. The EV has to carry a very heavy fuel source compared to the EV to mitigate the disparity in energy density.
That's also a reason for some car manufacturers offer two battery chemistries.
It is no different to why companies offer petrol and diesel models and people should select according to their requirements.



.

Yeah, it’s just you said that every feature you use on an Ev drains the battery, I am just saying it’s the same for petrol cars.

Energy density is a bit of a red herring, I mean an EV easily carries enough energy for 99% of people’s daily consumption, and then you just charge when you get home, if you are charging daily, you don’t need to carry a weeks worth of energy.

 

[sptrawler]

Yeah, it’s just you said that every feature you use on an Ev drains the battery, I am just saying it’s the same for petrol cars.

Energy density is a bit of a red herring, I mean an EV easily carries enough energy for 99% of people’s daily consumption, and then you just charge when you get home, if you are charging daily, you don’t need to carry a weeks worth of energy.

Depends where you live and what you use it for, I find the EV great, but I'm sure there are others who live in more remote areas of W.A that might not be as happy.
With an ICE car, people can mitigate the issue by carrying spare fuel if required, eg towing a caravan/trailer etc.
I'm extremely reluctant to recommend buying an EV to all and sundry, at this point in time, but that's only me and I do live in W.A.
Charging infrastructure and EV charging speeds are always improving and infrastructure failure rates are decreasing.
I'm sure in the future charging wont be an issue, but queues and failures are common in country W.A and careful trip planning is required.

 

[qldfrog]

Just a slight note:
if you are charging daily, you don’t need to carry a weeks worth of energy.
Actually you do literally carry it as in a ton of deadweight when your battery is at 5%
Every watt and kg counts and the heavy always there, weight of batteries remains an issue vs fossil fuels tanks which get lighter and lighter .

Not a terrible issue on cars but for planes a show stopper.
We all know how heavy are long range flights are at take off vs landing, good luck with battery planes
Full size EVs are heavy monsters rivalling the worst of the American utes.
2025 is not a good time to be driving in a Smart in Australia

 

[Value Collector]

Depends where you live and what you use it for, I find the EV great, but I'm sure there are others who live in more remote areas of W.A that might not be as happy.
With an ICE car, people can mitigate the issue by carrying spare fuel if required, eg towing a caravan/trailer etc.
I'm extremely reluctant to recommend buying an EV to all and sundry, at this point in time, but that's only me and I do live in W.A.
Charging infrastructure and EV charging speeds are always improving and infrastructure failure rates are decreasing.
I'm sure in the future charging wont be an issue, but queues and failures are common in country W.A and careful trip planning is required.

Yeah of course, but you are talking about extreme examples there. The vast majority of people don’t travel more that 400km per day, and even most of those that do can easily incorporate a 10 min charge some where on that route to give them enough to get home. (They probably stop for petrol anyway)

Most people don’t live in WA, and most people that do (80%) of those people live in Perth. And only really drive around Perth

I guess the main reason I take issue with the argument is that energy density and charging times is one of the biggest reasons people say they would avoid EV, and it’s almost always coming from people that drive less than 100kms per day, that are just repeating stuff they heard without really thinking about how an EV would actually fit into their lives.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yeah of course, but you are talking about extreme examples there. The vast majority of people don’t travel more that 400km per day, and even most of those that do can easily incorporate a 10 min charge some where on that route to give them enough to get home.

I guess the main reason I take issue with the argument is that energy density and charging times is one of the biggest reasons people say they would avoid EV, and it’s almost always coming from people that drive less than 100kms per day, that are just repeating stuff they heard without really thinking about how an EV would actually fit into their lives.

True, but a daily routine does not take into account road trip holidays in remote areas or towing for which an EV is not suitable.

So that involves either having more than one vehicle, not having the holidays you want, or hiring a vehicle which is expensive.