From ABC, October 16, 2006
Australia to make South Pacific aid conditional
Australia says it will impose conditions on aid to Papua New Guinea (PNG) and Solomon Islands to get better governance in the South Pacific.
The Prime Minister, John Howard, says Australia has every right to attach conditions to its aid.
"If you want Australian aid, you've got to reduce corruption. If you want Australian aid, you've got to improve governance," Mr Howard said.
"If you want Australian aid, you've got to have a better approach to economic management.
"It's not a question of forcing countries to do things, it's a question of defending the operation of the rule of law in Australia."
Mr Howard says the diplomatic fight with Papua New Guinea and Solomon Islands is caused by the police effort to extradite and prosecute the suspended Solomons Attorney-General, Julian Moti.
He says the Government will not interfere with the police and the rule of law.
Julia My guess is youre talking local Pacific - not necessarily the ones diagonally opposite for instanceJulia said:I completely support the government's tough stand re our Pacific neighbours.Julia
No problem with the arrest and incarceration - but coming up 5 years, and no day in court? Long stretches of solitary confinement etc. We have given away any high moral ground - question is are we now - or can we ever be - in that position again without using brain instead of braun. You didnt see the interviews with COL sorry Maj Mori then? (his defence lawyer). even he's disgusted with the US lack of morality in Hick's case. The man's a Major in the US Marines - you'd like him - everyone likes him - fine upstanding American lad - even he mate - even he is appalled. British citizenship would have been enough to get him out of the clutches - denied. Lesser charges than other Aussies let out and backhome.Epsilon said:And you characterise his arrest and incarceration as plight?
You have a point - the middle east is a mess bigtime. But as I heard someone say on the ABC in a recent debate (actually about Israel and Lebanon). ... "There's never going to be peace in that area until people learn to love their children more than they hate their enemies. "Epsilon said:.. ..Very doubtfull though, judging by their barbarically terroristic actions against their own people in Iraq, on a daily basis. If you live in Australia (somehow I think -I don't know "the" why......- you don't) I will kindly ask you to watch the ABC Foreign Correspondent programme tomorrow night. It's a special on Indonesian Terrorism.
Epsilon said:Terrorism is the worst EVER problem our planet has been confronted with. You cannot fight islamic fanaticism that worships death and turns human beings into mass murderers in the name of a non-existent deity. The USA should have implemented a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY in its (our) fight against the scourge, the the worst ever plague that has afflicted humanity. Islamic Terrorism. You cannot -sorry to say it, but it's true- be tolerant and humane with someone whose only ultimate aim is to destroy your civilisation and kill you unless you are prepared to esouse his barbarically savage religious ideology. Sorry mate: Your enemy, my enemy, is NOT G.W Bush, it's NOT the USA, it's NOT the WEST. Islamic fanaticism and the hatred, misanthropy and dangerously anti-Western actions they are involved in, is.
Please re-examine and set your "humane" priorities right. About time, methinks!
Cheers)
2020hindsight said:You have a point - the middle east is a mess bigtime. But as I heard someone say on the ABC in a recent debate (actually about Israel and Lebanon). ... "There's never going to be peace in that area until people learn to love their children more than they hate their enemies. "
Vigilance against explosives etc sure. (But OBVIOUSLY you're never going to stamp it out unless you get inside peoples heads). But let's "tone up the E string - and the positives - and tone down the hate". You have to deal with the moderate Moslems. You think they like what's happening ?
No, mate Im an Eskimo pineapple farmer, - who just happens to be particularly concerned about the farmers in central Australia - cant for the life of me think why I could be interested in people 1000's of miles away.
Totally changing the topic - I was surprised to discover that there are more Moslems in India than there are in Pakistan. And its been relatively peaceful for years. (I should check these things out before posting - but I havent - told to me by an Indian).
PS whenever I go to Perth I make a point of going up to the new memorial at Kings Park - once a year on 12.10 the beams of the rising sun can pass down this corridor and light up a plaque on a stone with the names of 16 Waussies killed. It's a really moving experience just to see the setup whether or not youre there on that day. Incidentally there were 30 odd Indonesians killed in 2002 and 15 in 2005 - religion unspecified granted - but everyone is suffering. And I dont think branding them all " ahhh whatever" is going to help.
PS Ill try to watch Foreign Correspondent.
1. Someone tried to extend the concept during the debate - "to love your enemies childern as well" - but Im enough of a realist to know that thats not going to happen. Not everyone is prepared to follow Ghandi's suggestino that we adopt a Muslim kid - and bring him up as a Muslem.Epsilon said:. 1."There's never going to be peace in that area until people learn to love their children more than they hate their enemies. "
2. Now, Perth? .beer? .Sometimes I venture into that unspoiled (still) part of the World right in the middle of a major city.....
3. Anyway, please do try to watch tonight's Foreign Correspondent programme as I also will..Cheers. Have a great day)
2020hindsight said:Incidentally, by the end of WW1, the diggers were relatively good mates with the Johnny Turks - under the circumstancesMutual respect still related by their offspring to this day !!
Epsilon said:Kemal Ataturk was ONLY in name a muslim. In fact he sent-off the caliphate from Turkey as well as making many changes (anti-Islamic) in the Turkish society. If Kemal was living today , and if he had the power and influence he had then, there would not be any islamic movement in Turkey, and perhaps even no functional islam at all!
As for his famous saying cited by you, he was also an extremely consumate diplomat, hence the saving and resurrection of Turkey later, after the Greeks had almost taken over most of the Aegean Turkey......That was only achieved because of his diplomatic manouvres that enticed the Western European Powers against the irrationally "belligerent"(so they were seen then) Greeks........
Anyway the fact is this: Kemal Atarkuk was far more anti-Islamo-Fascist than most of today's Western Leaders. He literally detested Islam! (Perhaps he knew more than some of today's "Leftists").........
Cheers))
2020hindsight said:Extracts from a couple of poems Epsilon. Maybe you'll see where Im coming from. Belive me I sympathise with the victims of bombing, Bali or elsewhere:-
IF I WERE GOD
If I were the God of the Righteous, and I mean in the global sense
And somebody said that the answer was “might” , and that killing was not an offence,
Or a volunteer bomber could somehow find “Bliss”, from the moment of impact and hence-
I’d prob’ly say “Son, just give-it-a-miss, ..and don’t be so God-damned dense!.”
Salvation my boy is a well informed joy,
(Enlightened, less frightened, and ranting-much-quietened,)
where you argue – like gents - at the fence.
The next one assumes that you're going to have to deal with the next generation of kids in some other way than to "nuke them"
HOW DO YOU JUDGE
How do you judge a small boy, born in bedlam, and brought up on bullet and bomb,
And forced to take sides since his age 4 or 5, with rebel or junta or com -
how Different from sons who grabbed rusty old guns, and told to report to the Somme?
yet They were our heroes - Aussies or Austrian, Polish or Prussian or Pom?
Empathy mate, he’s a victim of fate,
Teach him guitar 'stead of military gait,
Half a chance gladly, he'd tone down the hate
Gladly swap rifle for song.
How do you judge when a father steals bread, and feeding his child’s his objective,
How do you measure the pain in his head, against some divine law directive,
how Different from coots who wear grey flannel suits, and somehow avoid the detective?,
and Rob us all blind, and yet they can find a loophole from public invective?.
Empathy, friends, for the child must be fed,
Half a chance, gladly, he's elsewhere instead,
Tolerance, friends, the alternative's ‘dead ‘
and Hunger is hardly elective.
How do you judge an old man wearing rags, who reckons he lived to the letter,
Alternative place or alternative race, it all could have been so much better,
Alternative time he’d be getting by fine, instead he’s a vagrant and debtor,
how Different from chaps where the dice won perhaps? - but dice have made him a regretter.
Half a chance gladly he’d rise from the mud,
Guilty but huge mitigations m’lud,
Empathy - there but for fortune’s my blood (brother)
Him wearing rags, me jet setter.
What do we do with this empathy savoured, and tolerance practiced in kind?
Live 20 lives which are various-flavoured, and give twice the kindness you find,
Only so much that one mortal can do - even one kindness-inclined,
Only so much - but a thought born of fairness will help keep your goalposts aligned -
Follow the truth (and on this never budge)
Constantly giving your conscience a nudge,
Walk a brief mile in his shoes, don't prejudge, (and let)
Prejudice wither on vine.
wayneL said:It is a great shame we don't have some Ataturks around today to keep the lunatic mullahs in check. It is a great shame that the Islamic countries have taken a step backwards into fundamentalism. This was not the case in Ataturks day as you point out. Even Afghanistan was a secular muslim society.
On the same vein (Fascism), I think we need to look at the log in our own eye as well. While concentrating on the faults of other societies/religions, we fail to see the drift of our own western societies towards right wing fascism, with the rabid lunatic TV evangelist, christian zionist, apocalyptic types in control in the US. They are no better than the idiot mullahs.
....and just for the record, I am not a "leftist". I would rather swallow razor blades.
Epsilon said:Terrorism is the worst EVER problem our planet has been confronted with. You cannot fight islamic fanaticism that worships death and turns human beings into mass murderers in the name of a non-existent deity. The USA should have implemented a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY in its (our) fight against the scourge, the the worst ever plague that has afflicted humanity. Islamic Terrorism. You cannot -sorry to say it, but it's true- be tolerant and humane with someone whose only ultimate aim is to destroy your civilisation and kill you unless you are prepared to esouse his barbarically savage religious ideology. Sorry mate: Your enemy, my enemy, is NOT G.W Bush, it's NOT the USA, it's NOT the WEST. Islamic fanaticism and the hatred, misanthropy and dangerously anti-Western actions they are involved in, is.
Please re-examine and set your "humane" priorities right. About time, methinks!
Cheers)
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