Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

Its like these mechanics on TikTok, trying to scare people off EV’s, obviously the are just scared of EV’s and repeating tired old nonsense.

 

[Value Collector]

True, but a daily routine does not take into account road trip holidays in remote areas or towing for which an EV is not suitable.

So that involves either having more than one vehicle, not having the holidays you want, or hiring a vehicle which is expensive.

You can definitely charge along the most common road trip routes, the remote areas again are extreme examples that most people aren’t doing, but yeah if you plan to do that get a petrol car for now.

 

[Knobby22]

Its like these mechanics on TikTok, trying to scare people off EV’s, obviously the are just scared of EV’s and repeating tired old nonsense.

The point about having to park in the street is a good one. (To hard to charge).
it's a big deal in the older parts of Melbourne.

 

[Value Collector]

The point about having to park in the street is a good one. (To hard to charge).
it's a big deal in the older parts of Melbourne.

Yeah, I agree with that one a little bit, But there are so many new chargers popping up everywhere including street charging .if he is fueling up once at petrol stations anyway, he could easily plug in for 30 mins a week some where while he does his grocery shop.

But yeah the gold standard is home charging,

 

[SirRumpole]

No doubt that in 20 years I'd say 80% of the cars on the road will be EV's, and that will be a good thing.

I'd just like to see a bit more effort on the behalf of governments to advance their adoption instead of just expecting it to happen.

 

[Knobby22]

Yeah, I agree with that one a little bit, But there are so many new chargers popping up everywhere including street charging .if he is fueling up once at petrol stations anyway, he could easily plug in for 30 mins a week some where while he does his grocery shop.

But yeah the gold standard is home charging,

I want to get an electric car in two years time but am hesitating as the solid state batteries look like the future. But unfortunately are at least 4 years away.

I think plug in hybrids generally appear a bit stupid. worst of both worlds, but maybe I am being harsh.

The good standard hybrids like Subaru/Toyota appear pretty good if I can't wait.

 

[sptrawler]

I want to get an electric car in two years time but am hesitating as the solid state batteries look like the future. But unfortunately are at least 4 years away.

I think plug in hybrids generally appear a bit stupid. worst of both worlds, but maybe I am being harsh.

The good standard hybrids like Subaru/Toyota appear pretty good if I can't wait.

If you live in a city and don't do a lot of heavy hauling, I would recommend a full EV over a hybrid, the extra servicing and complexity made me opt for a full EV.

 

[Value Collector]

Ye

I want to get an electric car in two years time but am hesitating as the solid state batteries look like the future. But unfortunately are at least 4 years away.

I think plug in hybrids generally appear a bit stupid. worst of both worlds, but maybe I am being harsh.

The good standard hybrids like Subaru/Toyota appear pretty good if I can't wait.

ah, there will be better tech in the future, but the way I see it is that the current tech is good enough, so there isn’t really a down side to getting the current version and just getting the upgraded tech on the next car after that.

 

[Value Collector]

No doubt that in 20 years I'd say 80% of the cars on the road will be EV's, and that will be a good thing.

I'd just like to see a bit more effort on the behalf of governments to advance their adoption instead of just expecting it to happen.

I am not sure what more you want them to do, the adoption seems pretty quick to me.

 

[Value Collector]

If you live in a city and don't do a lot of heavy hauling, I would recommend a full EV over a hybrid, the extra servicing and complexity made me opt for a full EV.

I think the best part about plug in hybrids, is it’s a stepping stone for the people that are scared. Once they realise that they love that first 70kms of battery driving, and hate buying fuel, I think they will upgrade to a full EV.

 

[SirRumpole]

I am not sure what more you want them to do, the adoption seems pretty quick to me.

Getting a usable charging network installed would be helpful.

 

[JohnDe]

I'm all for a road user tax. Anyone that uses the roads, including recipients of delivered goods, should in some form contribute to the building and repair of roads.

However, I also believe that government should stop putting the collected tax from fuel excise into general revenue and instead use all of it for its required purpose - road maintenance and pollution mitigation.

The fuel excise in Australia is currently about 51 cents a litre and is rolled into the cost of fuel at the bowser.​

​

Some, such as the Australian Automobile Association claim revenue from the excise pays for roads. But it actually goes into the federal government’s general revenue.​

​

The primary economic function of the fuel tax is that of a charge on motorists for the harmful pollution their vehicles generate.​

Stop the free ride: all motorists should pay their way, whatever vehicle they drive

A new road charge is looming for electric vehicle drivers, amid reports Treasurer Jim Chalmers is accelerating the policy as part of a broader tax-reform push.

At a forum in Sydney this week, state and federal Treasury officials are reportedly meeting with industry figures and others to progress design of the policy, ahead of next week’s economic reform summit.

Much discussion in favour of the charge assumes drivers of electric and hybrid vehicles don’t “pay their way”, because they are not subject to the fuel excise tax.

This view is based on an economic misconception: that fuel taxes are justified by the need to pay for the construction and maintenance of roads.

This is incorrect. In a properly functioning economic system, fuel taxes should be considered a charge on motorists for the harmful pollution their vehicles generate.

That leaves the problem of paying for roads. To that end, a road-user charge should be applied to all motorists – regardless of the vehicle they drive – so no-one gets a free ride.


A road-user charge should be applied to all motorists. NSW government

What is the fuel excise?​

The fuel excise in Australia is currently about 51 cents a litre and is rolled into the cost of fuel at the bowser.

Some, such as the Australian Automobile Association claim revenue from the excise pays for roads. But it actually goes into the federal government’s general revenue.

The primary economic function of the fuel tax is that of a charge on motorists for the harmful pollution their vehicles generate.


Fuel excise is rolled into the cost of fuel at the bowser. FLAVIO BRANCALEONE/AAP

Paying the cost of pollution​

Vehicles with internal combustion engines – that is, those that run on petrol or diesel – create several types of pollution.

The first is carbon dioxide emissions, which contribute to human-caused climate change. Others include local air pollution from particulates and exhaust pollution as well as noise pollution.

In economic terms, these effects are known as “negative externalities”. They arise when one party makes another party worse off, but doesn’t pay the costs of doing so.

How big are the costs to society imposed by polluting vehicles? Estimates vary widely. But they are almost certainly as large as, or larger than, the revenue generated from fuel excise.

Let’s tease that out.

A litre of petrol weighs about 0.74 kg. But when burned, it generates 2.3 kg of CO₂. That’s because when the fuel is combusted, the carbon combines with heavier oxygen atoms.

Before the re-election of United States President Donald Trump, the nation’s Environmental Protection Agency estimated the social cost of carbon dioxide emissions at about US$190 (A$292) per metric tonne.

So in Australian terms, that means CO₂ emissions from burning petrol costs about 67 cents a litre, more than the current excise of 51 cents per litre.

Even using a more conservative estimate of US$80 a metric tonne, CO₂ emissions generate costs of around 28 cents a litre, more than half the fuel excise.

A spotlight on health impacts​

Motor vehicles are a major cause of air pollution. Air pollution is causally linked to six diseases:

• coronary heart disease
• chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
• stroke
• type 2 diabetes
• lung cancer
• lower respiratory infections.

Estimates of the deaths associated with air pollution in Australia range from 3,200 to more than 4,200 a year.

Even the lower end of that range is far more than the roughly 1,200 lives lost in car crashes annually.

University of Melbourne analysis in 2023 landed at an even higher figure. It suggested vehicle emissions alone may be responsible for more than 11,000 premature deaths in adults in Australia a year.

Putting a dollar value on life and health is difficult – but necessary for good policy making.

The usual approach is to examine the “statistical” reduction in deaths for a given policy measure. For example, a policy measure that eliminates a hazard faced by 1,000 people, reducing death risk by 1 percentage point, would save ten statistical lives.

The Australian government ascribes a value of $5.7 million per (statistical) life lost or saved. So, hypothetically, a saving of 2,000 lives a year would yield a benefit of more than $10 billion.

This is more than half the revenue collected in fuel excise each year.


Putting a dollar value on life and health is difficult – but necessary for good policy making. DIEGO FEDELE/AAP

The best road forward​

Given the harms caused by traditional vehicles, society should welcome the decline in fuel excise revenue caused by the transition to EVs – in the same way we should welcome declining revenue from cigarette taxes.

If we assume fuel excise pays for pollution costs, then who is paying for roads?

The cost of roads goes far beyond construction and maintenance. The capital and land allocated to roads represents a huge investment, on which the public, as a whole, receives zero return.

Vehicle registration fees make only a modest contribution to road costs. That’s why all motorists should pay a road-user charge.

The payment should be based on a combination of vehicle mass and distance travelled. That’s because damage to roads is overwhelmingly caused by heavy vehicles.

Then comes the question of Australia’s emissions reduction. The switch to electric vehicles in Australia is going much too slowly. A road user charge targeting only electric and hybrid vehicles would be a grave mistake, slowing the uptake further.

 

[Value Collector]

Getting a usable charging network installed would be helpful.

There is chargers every where I look these days, you might not notice them but the are popping up everywhere. There are 5 fast chargers just in my local area, and all over the rest of the city they are every where too. I used to have to make sure I wouldn't miss one on the Sydney - Brisbane drive, now I drive past dozens along the way for every one that I actually end up stopping at.

 

[qldfrog]

I'm all for a road user tax. Anyone that uses the roads, including recipients of delivered goods, should in some form contribute to the building and repair of roads.

However, I also believe that government should stop putting the collected tax from fuel excise into general revenue and instead use all of it for its required purpose - road maintenance and pollution mitigation.

The fuel excise in Australia is currently about 51 cents a litre and is rolled into the cost of fuel at the bowser.​

​

Some, such as the Australian Automobile Association claim revenue from the excise pays for roads. But it actually goes into the federal government’s general revenue.​

​

The primary economic function of the fuel tax is that of a charge on motorists for the harmful pollution their vehicles generate.​

that one is premium:
The primary economic function of the fuel tax is that of a charge on motorists for the harmful pollution their vehicles generate.
no, it is to get more tax money for the leaders to burn

 

[JohnDe]

In the Weekend Australian -

WA’s new EV network put to test: The good, bad and beautiful​

Western Australia has garnered international attention for its 7000km-long tourist route pitched at electric-vehicle drivers. We put it to the test | WATCH VIDEO

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/travel/was-new-ev-network-put-to-test-the-good-bad-and-beautiful/news-story/78dfae637178726c5cbacaeb1f5a620c

 

[moXJO]

There is chargers every where I look these days, you might not notice them but the are popping up everywhere. There are 5 fast chargers just in my local area, and all over the rest of the city they are every where too. I used to have to make sure I wouldn't miss one on the Sydney - Brisbane drive, now I drive past dozens along the way for every one that I actually end up stopping at.

5?
That doesn't fill me with much confidence. How pop dense is your area?

 

[mullokintyre]

i have just come back from 8 weeeks away from OZ.
First thing I noticed in UK, was the proliferation of EV's and charging points.
Some of the charging ponts are less than ideal in that they are in places that are hard to acess, or are only available when the premises on which they stand are also available.
It may be that they have just been installing them for longer than we do in OZ.
The charging cost on one of them was a whopping 49P per KWHR, nearly a buck in our language.
Second thing I noticed was the there are so many models of EV's in the UK that are not available in OZ.
I rented three cars there, a jeep Compass PHEV which was pretty much like all the other jeeps I have driven, pretty ordinary.
We charged it once and put petrol in oit once.
The second was an EV from Puegeot, the 2008EV.
Terrible car, like the MG. the cruise control is hidden behind the steering wheel, and you hav to be braille functional to use it.
The rental versions must be a cut down el cheapo.
Apart from having only about 300KM's range, it had no on board mapping system, no electric trail gate, heated seats steering wheel etc.
Was a slug to drive and not terribly peppy.
The last one was a n ICE Mazda CX5.
Had all the bells and whistles, had a 650 km range, and a cruise control that was intuitive and worked.
We took it because we were driving for a week in the more remote parts of Scotland, and with such an iffy range on the basic EV, was not chancing my arm at being stranded.
All three of them had the indicator stalk on the left hand side of the steering column, something that annoys me in a RHD vehicle.
We also spent two weeks in Iceland.
A country that provides more than 95% of its electricity needs via Hydro and geothermal power.
In a country that is hideously expensive to visit, Electricity there is one of few things that is relatively cheap, and although prices vary, the one guy I spoke to at a charging station said he paid about the equivalent of 14 cents Australian per kwhr..
With diesel around a tad over $AUD4, it comes as no surprise that EVs there make up about two third of the vehicle market, and in 2022, more than 85% of new vehicles were plug in EV's (most of them are hybrids from what I saw).
Our guide was telling us that his wife has a VW ID4 an loves it, however the one downside is that at the sort of cold temperatures they get in winter, the performance of the EV suffers significantly in anything below -6C.
Given that they do not drive to far in Winter anyway, its not such an issue for them.
Spent a week in Malaysia on the way back.
Never been there before, and they have a proliferation of EV's as well.
We got picked up at the airport by a Denza E9 which is a butt ugly people mover made by BYD.
Car driver told me that it costs about 18cents AUD to charge , which is pretty good considering most of their electricity is driven by Fossil Fuels.
Seeing as we spent a lot of time sitting in traffic doing nothing, an EV would seem like a perfect vehicle for the inhabitants of KL.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

5?
That doesn't fill me with much confidence. How pop dense is your area?

Really... how many do you think you need in your suburb? in 6 years I have only used them twice. Remember the vast majority of people are charging at home.

 

[moXJO]

Really... how many do you think you need in your suburb? in 6 years I have only used them twice. Remember the vast majority of people are charging at home.

Thats because EVs are a tiny % right now.
Unit blocks that are older and density housing is where 5 is a joke. Thats why i asked about population density in that area

 

[Value Collector]

Thats because EVs are a tiny % right now.
Unit blocks that are older and density housing is where 5 is a joke. Thats why i asked about population density in that area

We don't have a lot of apartments, mainly houses and townhouses, there is a few apartments around, but not many.

Charging Stations can be built faster than petrol stations, so I can't see there being an issue with growing the number of charging stations as demand grows. Right now I would say we probably have an over supply of charging locations in my suburb, 5 is lot, I never see any of them at 100% capacity, except maybe the one at Coles a few times hashed all 4 slots used, but that pretty rare.