The Turnbull Government

[sptrawler]

I think Turnbull, needs to worry more about Morrison than Dutton, who ever leads the Libs is only going to get a short tenure anyway, after the next election the cards will be re shuffled in the LNP.
My guess is Morrison is keeping his powder dry, there is no point in fighting, to grab the wooden spoon.
Dutton is as popular as a fart in a phone box, so even if he wins, the popularity polls will kill him.IMO

 

[fiftyeight]

No doubt, it is complicated and challenging. But it surely can be done without the need to build a new Coal plant. Especially when we have a vast land with abundant sun, wind and other resources to exploit.

Some smart people put this together 8 years ago

http://media.bze.org.au/ZCA2020_Stationary_Energy_Report_v1.pdf

 

[sptrawler]

Some smart people put this together 8 years ago

http://media.bze.org.au/ZCA2020_Stationary_Energy_Report_v1.pdf

Yes, another great sales brochure, big on promise short on fact.
This was all supposed to be feasible and available 10 years ago, according to the blurb and could be installed and running by 2020.

From section 3:
60% of Australia's power would be supplied by Concentrated Solar Thermal (cst) Power Plants (molten salt storage), located over 12 sites in strategic locations for solar generation.
The Plan proposes 3,500 MW of CST capacity to be installed near each of the 12 towns shown in Figure 3.2. Each site is primarily made up of “Solar 220” generating units, which have a net output of 217 MW each.

Now for the 2020 reality, remember these are meant to be up and running, all gas and coal shut down.

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/...4-hour-renewable-energy-crescent-dunes-nevada

From the article, this is the reality as of 2018 :

What people are actually seeing is a 110-megawatt concentrated solar power (CSP) plant, built and operated by SolarReserve of Santa Monica, California. It's not from outer space, but there's not yet anything quite like it of this size anywhere else on the planet.

SolarReserve is trying to prove that the technology that drives Crescent Dunes can make solar power an affordable, carbon-free, day-and-night energy source, dispatched on the electric grid like any fossil fuel plant. Here, concentrated sunlight heats molten salt to 1,050 degrees Fahrenheit in that shimmering tower; then the salt gets stored in a giant insulated tank and can be tapped to make steam to run a turbine.
If this plant and several similar facilities under construction, or soon to be, prove reliable, the technology is poised to take off. Solar photovoltaic (PV) panels can displace fossil fuels during the day, and wind turbines can do the same as long as it's windy. But molten salt towers may be able to meet the challenge of electricity on demand, and push more older, dirtier fossil-fuel plants into retirement.

The price of the power generated at SolarReserve's second plant, to be built near Port Augusta, Australia, will be less than half that of the electricity produced by Crescent Dunes—about 7.8 cents (Australian) per kilowatt-hour, or just over 6 U.S. cents. When the South Australia government signed the contract to buy the plant's output in August, the state's treasurer, Tom Koutsantonis, tweeted that a "shiver has just gone up the coal generation industry's spine," because a new coal plant can't match that price.

Kevin Smith, chief executive officer of SolarReserve, believes Crescent Dunes shows that the technology works and the next projects on the books will prove out the economics. The company has a third plant moving forward in South Africa and has plans for 10 more CSP towers in Nevada to serve California's needs.

"We're going to see it through," said Smith of the effort to gain acceptance for this type of generation. He helped build the company Invenergy into one of the largest owners of U.S. wind farms before joining SolarReserve at its founding in 2008. "It's taken a while to get to where we are. The market is now responding. We've got our costs down. We're winning bids."


So in reality, it is still experimental and being proven, yet your article would have us believe we could have been building them 10 years ago.
Like you said, very intelligent people, at roping people in. IMO

 

[PZ.]

I think Turnbull, needs to worry more about Morrison than Dutton, who ever leads the Libs is only going to get a short tenure anyway, after the next election the cards will be re shuffled in the LNP.
My guess is Morrison is keeping his powder dry, there is no point in fighting, to grab the wooden spoon.
Dutton is as popular as a fart in a phone box, so even if he wins, the popularity polls will kill him.IMO

Yep, tend to agree. Newspoll out on Monday. Any bets? 56-44 for ALP ?

Meanwhile...

 

[sptrawler]

Yep, tend to agree. Newspoll out on Monday. Any bets? 56-44 for ALP ?

Meanwhile...

Yep as usual, the media trying to get dirt on Abbott, they are obsessed with him.
The good thing about it is, the rest of the Libs get Parliament time, without the constant media harassment.
I guess he is taking one for the team.
Which should stand them in good stead, after the next term of Government, the Libs interchange bench looks a lot stronger than Labors.
Anyway as Tony said,"the circus goes on".

 

[fiftyeight]

Yes, another great sales brochure, big on promise short on fact.
This was all supposed to be feasible and available 10 years ago, according to the blurb and could be installed and running by 2020.

From section 3:
60% of Australia's power would be supplied by Concentrated Solar Thermal (cst) Power Plants (molten salt storage), located over 12 sites in strategic locations for solar generation.
The Plan proposes 3,500 MW of CST capacity to be installed near each of the 12 towns shown in Figure 3.2. Each site is primarily made up of “Solar 220” generating units, which have a net output of 217 MW each.

Now for the 2020 reality, remember these are meant to be up and running, all gas and coal shut down.

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/...4-hour-renewable-energy-crescent-dunes-nevada

From the article, this is the reality as of 2018 :

What people are actually seeing is a 110-megawatt concentrated solar power (CSP) plant, built and operated by SolarReserve of Santa Monica, California. It's not from outer space, but there's not yet anything quite like it of this size anywhere else on the planet.

SolarReserve is trying to prove that the technology that drives Crescent Dunes can make solar power an affordable, carbon-free, day-and-night energy source, dispatched on the electric grid like any fossil fuel plant. Here, concentrated sunlight heats molten salt to 1,050 degrees Fahrenheit in that shimmering tower; then the salt gets stored in a giant insulated tank and can be tapped to make steam to run a turbine.
If this plant and several similar facilities under construction, or soon to be, prove reliable, the technology is poised to take off. Solar photovoltaic (PV) panels can displace fossil fuels during the day, and wind turbines can do the same as long as it's windy. But molten salt towers may be able to meet the challenge of electricity on demand, and push more older, dirtier fossil-fuel plants into retirement.

The price of the power generated at SolarReserve's second plant, to be built near Port Augusta, Australia, will be less than half that of the electricity produced by Crescent Dunes—about 7.8 cents (Australian) per kilowatt-hour, or just over 6 U.S. cents. When the South Australia government signed the contract to buy the plant's output in August, the state's treasurer, Tom Koutsantonis, tweeted that a "shiver has just gone up the coal generation industry's spine," because a new coal plant can't match that price.

Kevin Smith, chief executive officer of SolarReserve, believes Crescent Dunes shows that the technology works and the next projects on the books will prove out the economics. The company has a third plant moving forward in South Africa and has plans for 10 more CSP towers in Nevada to serve California's needs.

"We're going to see it through," said Smith of the effort to gain acceptance for this type of generation. He helped build the company Invenergy into one of the largest owners of U.S. wind farms before joining SolarReserve at its founding in 2008. "It's taken a while to get to where we are. The market is now responding. We've got our costs down. We're winning bids."


So in reality, it is still experimental and being proven, yet your article would have us believe we could have been building them 10 years ago.
Like you said, very intelligent people, at roping people in. IMO

I have no issue striving for a stretch goal and failing by a few years maybe 10. What I do have an issue with is the BS situation we are in now.

There is no perfect green solution, but that does not mean we should build more coal as a stop gap. We are a lucky successful nation. We should take risks and push the technological boundaries and be world leaders instead of the laggards we have become

 

[sptrawler]

Some smart people put this together 8 years ago

http://media.bze.org.au/ZCA2020_Stationary_Energy_Report_v1.pdf

I was just thinking, this rubbish is the very reason everyone including intelligent people, think that carbon free power is or should be available.

The problem is the media believe it, and if they believe it they publish it, then it becomes "fact".
Is there any wonder, we can't have a sensible debate, about a controlled move to renewable's.
The media has a lot to answer for, they should be asking the question "how do we replace our base load generation", not just re printing salesman's waffle.

 

[fiftyeight]

I was just thinking, this rubbish is the very reason everyone including intelligent people, think that carbon free power is or should be available.

This received very little attention as far as I can remember (I was partying a lot more back then though)

I am quite happy to defer to people like smurf and other much smarter people. However I highly doubt the LNP, ALP or the Greens are those people

 

[sptrawler]

I have no issue striving for a stretch goal and failing by a few years maybe 10. What I do have an issue with is the BS situation we are in now.

There is no perfect green solution, but that does not mean we should build more coal as a stop gap. We are a lucky successful nation. We should take risks and push the technological boundaries and be world leaders instead of the laggards we have become

That isn't a stretched goal, it is blatant miss information, which is half the problem.

If people such as yourself, took responsibility for the outcomes, you wouldn't be so prepared to take the risk. What really galls me, is the fact you don't put up the facts, as well as the BS.
All you do is miss lead the general population, with ridiculous garbage, that causes angst.

 

[sptrawler]

This received very little attention as far as I can remember (I was partying a lot more back then though)

I am quite happy to defer to people like smurf and other much smarter people. However I highly doubt the LNP, ALP or the Greens are those people

Your post was headlined, as being presented by smarter people, it seems defering means absconding responsibility for posting.
It may be best to research, before posting.

 

[sptrawler]

I have no issue striving for a stretch goal and failing by a few years maybe 10. What I do have an issue with is the BS situation we are in now.

There is no perfect green solution, but that does not mean we should build more coal as a stop gap. We are a lucky successful nation. We should take risks and push the technological boundaries and be world leaders instead of the laggards we have become

Didn't you read the post, S.A is building the biggest molten salt generator in the World and it is still experimental.
We are pushing the boundaries, are you suggesting pushing the boundaries while sitting in the dark, would be better? FFS

 

[Smurf1976]

So far as energy an indeed all infrastructure is concerned, my view is that it should never have come to the point where mention of power stations and changing the Prime Minister in the same sentence actually makes sense to anyone.

Electricity should be something that just gets done. The only people needing to worry about it should be those working in the industry. Beyond that, well if someone has an interest in science and engineering stuff and wants to know about it or they want to bring their kids along to a power station open day and show them how things like that work then sure, that's fine let's show them, but it shouldn't be something that's an actual problem for the nation.

It just shouldn't be that everyone from accountants to farmers are giving at least some thought to whether or not they can afford to turn the lights on. Likewise nobody should need to contemplate that turning on their air-conditioner might black out the neighbours.

It just shouldn't have come to this and that is has is 100% the creation of politicians on all sides. If I was to single anyone out though it would be actually not be an Australian since the ideology that everything ought to be financialised does not originate from Australia, we just copied it, and is the primary root cause of where we're at now.

Perhaps to the surprise of some I'll mention former Greens leader Bob Brown as one of the few people I've met who I'm very sure does "get it" that it's a flawed approach. I don't agree with him on many of the details of what to do about it but environmentalists had certainly cottoned on to what was really happening long before most. Credit where it's due.

The same could be said for other things like transport. The trains should just work, we should have competent and adequately resourced people to make sure that happens, and we shouldn't have ministers overriding sound decision making and leading to poor or even dangerous things being done with the roads .

Put some doctors in charge of hospitals, some engineers in charge of power and railways, give some proper respect to people like scientists and their profession, and then we'll stop having these problems.

 

[moXJO]

That isn't a stretched goal, it is blatant miss information, which is half the problem.

If people such as yourself, took responsibility for the outcomes, you wouldn't be so prepared to take the risk. What really galls me, is the fact you don't put up the facts, as well as the BS.
All you do is miss lead the general population, with ridiculous garbage, that causes angst.

Welcome to 2018.

Renewables ain't there yet imo. Between lifespan, cost and reliability (bar hydro) it ain't going to cut it.

 

[sptrawler]

Welcome to 2018.

Renewables ain't there yet imo. Between lifespan, cost and reliability (bar hydro) it ain't going to cut it.

Hallelujah, a light in the wilderness.

 

[Smurf1976]

As an analogy, the technical difficulties in using renewables could be compared to the weather by saying that an average day in Adelaide is fine with a top of 22 degrees. Statistically that is correct, 22.4 if you want to be precise. Sounds nice.

Simply looking at that data only you could easily conclude that homes in Adelaide do not require heating or cooling and that the climate is just about perfect.

Now if you have ever lived in or even visited Adelaide you will be well aware that most days aren't average and that in truth the city commonly experiences both hot and cold weather, indeed there aren't actually many days at all where it's about 22 degrees and fine.

Wind and solar energy are much the same. Very rarely are they "just right" or even average. In practice it's a feast or famine thing most of the time. Wind supplied just 2.4% of electricity in the National Electricity Market during today's demand peak, solar was zero at the same time, but now wind's up to 5.9% and rising (although the vast majority of that wind power at the moment is being produced in SA).

Can all this be made to work? Yes, I'm very sure it can be done. Diverse geographic locations for the wind and solar generation, pumped hydro, some batteries, scientifically based control of it and a strong grid to tie it all together = a working system. It's far more complex than just building stuff and thinking it'll work though. Just like investing is far more complex than just buying 20 random shares and contemplating what sort of island to buy when you're worth $ billions.

 

[So_Cynical]

So far as energy an indeed all infrastructure is concerned, my view is that it should never have come to the point where mention of power stations and changing the Prime Minister in the same sentence actually makes sense to anyone.

Electricity should be something that just gets done.

That's it in a nut shell, these idiots politicised good sense, they made the inevitable a political issue, power generation needed to undertake a 40 - 50 year transition away from coal and 30 years after this was obvious we still have nothing in place - i mean drop the GST on power to bring bills down is the best they can do..

The LNP is pretty much split 50/50, remember Tony won that vote against Malcolm by 1 vote..and about a decade later here we are again, half the LNP are hard core deniers, the others have no hope of bringing them along, thus we have the LNP imploding.

 

[fiftyeight]

Can all this be made to work? Yes, I'm very sure it can be done. Diverse geographic locations for the wind and solar generation, pumped hydro, some batteries, scientifically based control of it and a strong grid to tie it all together = a working system. It's far more complex than just building stuff and thinking it'll work though. Just like investing is far more complex than just buying 20 random shares and contemplating what sort of island to buy when you're worth $ billions.

Extremely complex problem with no silver bullet. Hopefully we do not have another decade of zero action and the correct people are finally invited to the table

 

[moXJO]

. It's far more complex than just building stuff and thinking it'll work though. Just like investing is far more complex than just buying 20 random shares and contemplating what sort of island to buy when you're worth $ billions.

This seems to be the current problem. Just tack **** on to the grid. Or add more solar to roofs.

A total overhaul would be a massive project. And also very needed.
But are australian governments even capable of getting it done these days.

 

[sptrawler]

That's it in a nut shell, these idiots politicised good sense, they made the inevitable a political issue, power generation needed to undertake a 40 - 50 year transition away from coal and 30 years after this was obvious we still have nothing in place - i mean drop the GST on power to bring bills down is the best they can do..

You pretty well hit it in a nutshell, priceless just priceless.

 

[PZ.]

Can all this be made to work? Yes, I'm very sure it can be done. Diverse geographic locations for the wind and solar generation, pumped hydro, some batteries, scientifically based control of it and a strong grid to tie it all together = a working system.

That's exactly what I've been advocating. The only thing holding it back is lack of funding - hence the idea of exporting more coal rather than just burning it.