The Turnbull Government

[sptrawler]

That's exactly what I've been advocating. The only thing holding it back is lack of funding - hence the idea of exporting more coal rather than just burning it.

Ask smurph, what would be a sensible time frame to accomplish it in.

But your idea of flogging off the coal is spot on, we are in a better position than most Countries, to convert to renewable's(other than those with huge mountains, small Country = heaps of hydro).

 

[PZ.]

Definitely decades, no illusions about the time frame at all

 

[Smurf1976]

Hopefully we do not have another decade of zero action

We'll be in an outright major crisis by that time if nothing changes.

I posted a list in another thread but there's simply so much old stuff that's wearing out whilst still being relied upon that it's only a matter of time until something breaks in a big way.

It's one of those things where nobody can predict exactly which bits will fail at what moment but it's easy to see that if you've got complex machinery that's old and tired then it's only a matter of time until things fail. The only bit that's hard to foresee is the detail of what happens when but the ultimate outcome is very obvious.

 

[fiftyeight]

We'll be in an outright major crisis by that time if nothing changes.

I posted a list in another thread but there's simply so much old stuff that's wearing out whilst still being relied upon that it's only a matter of time until something breaks in a big way.

It's one of those things where nobody can predict exactly which bits will fail at what moment but it's easy to see that if you've got complex machinery that's old and tired then it's only a matter of time until things fail. The only bit that's hard to foresee is the detail of what happens when but the ultimate outcome is very obvious.

Just like my old Corolla, not sure what is about to break but I know it will be something soon.

Working on a large gas plant I see every day the time and planning that goes into running complex systems. As you keep saying, leave it to the experts!!!

I dont think anyone is expecting building to commence tomorrow but this should all have been figured out years ago. And possibly on the way to a greener future money would need to spent on coal. Nothing wrong with that if it fit in to a plan.

I just want a plan and I have no idea where that will come from at the moment.

 

[sptrawler]

We'll be in an outright major crisis by that time if nothing changes.

I posted a list in another thread but there's simply so much old stuff that's wearing out whilst still being relied upon that it's only a matter of time until something breaks in a big way.

It's one of those things where nobody can predict exactly which bits will fail at what moment but it's easy to see that if you've got complex machinery that's old and tired then it's only a matter of time until things fail. The only bit that's hard to foresee is the detail of what happens when but the ultimate outcome is very obvious.

What happens smurph is a complete meltdown of discipline, the Government of the day says fix it, we don't give a $hit what it costs, just fix it (been there done that).

That's the problem with the debate at the moment, it is all touchy touchy feely feely, when the poo hits the fan, the general public just wants electricity.

The LNP are preempting the problem and ways to mitigate the transition, Labor are playing to the ideological/Green we will make a bigger commitment vote, even though they can't deliver.
But who cares, as long as it wins votes, worry about the job when you've got it.
Untill then it is just blowing smoke up your nether regions.

 

[Smurf1976]

I just want a plan and I have no idea where that will come from at the moment.

For what it's worth there was a plan being hatched circa 1990 involving NSW, Vic, SA and Tas until all the politics came along.

This was something done by engineers with knowledge and approval of senior management of the state electricity authorities. There were also various others involved including proper consideration of environmental issues both CO2 and others.

It was never finalised in detail but the basic elements were:

Join Tas to Vic (done eventually). Bearing in mind SA had just been joined to Vic only months earlier, this would lead to a combined NSW, ACT, Vic, SA, Tas system that could be operated more efficiently than separate smaller systems. The idea that Qld might eventually also join it was also there but wasn't part of the plan as such (has since been done though).

No more conventional coal-fired plant built but a new coal-fired plant designed specifically to operate intermittently and cope with varying loads across the states in an efficient manner would be built instead. It was never built.

Next step would be a large capacity gas-fired plant able to rapidly change output whilst retaining efficiency. As with the coal plant this would serve the needs of all connected states. It was never built.

Next would be pumped storage and renewables noting that sites for the pumped storage facilities had already been identified in NSW, Vic and SA and that wind and solar monitoring had already been set up too.

So engineers and others were certainly thinking about an orderly, staged approach to the problem quite some time ago (this was circa 1991). They didn't get to the point of detailed timing before all that sort of planning was disbanded amidst the politics of the era but the "how" aspect was certainly being progressed in a staged manner.

 

[Smurf1976]

That's the problem with the debate at the moment, it is all touchy touchy feely feely, when the poo hits the fan, the general public just wants electricity.

I see a future involving diesel.

The ultimate stupidity since oil is the one energy resource we're mostly reliant on imports for but it's a reality that setting up even a thousand diesel generators is quicker than anything else so a very likely outcome in practice. Not a good outcome but I can foresee it happening.

 

[sptrawler]

For what it's worth there was a plan being hatched circa 1990 involving NSW, Vic, SA and Tas until all the politics came along.

This was something done by engineers with knowledge and approval of senior management of the state electricity authorities. There were also various others involved including proper consideration of environmental issues both CO2 and others.

It was never finalised in detail but the basic elements were:

Join Tas to Vic (done eventually). Bearing in mind SA had just been joined to Vic only months earlier, this would lead to a combined NSW, ACT, Vic, SA, Tas system that could be operated more efficiently than separate smaller systems. The idea that Qld might eventually also join it was also there but wasn't part of the plan as such (has since been done though).

No more conventional coal-fired plant built but a new coal-fired plant designed specifically to operate intermittently and cope with varying loads across the states in an efficient manner would be built instead. It was never built.

Next step would be a large capacity gas-fired plant able to rapidly change output whilst retaining efficiency. As with the coal plant this would serve the needs of all connected states. It was never built.

Next would be pumped storage and renewables noting that sites for the pumped storage facilities had already been identified in NSW, Vic and SA and that wind and solar monitoring had already been set up too.

So engineers and others were certainly thinking about an orderly, staged approach to the problem quite some time ago (this was circa 1991). They didn't get to the point of detailed timing before all that sort of planning was disbanded amidst the politics of the era but the "how" aspect was certainly being progressed in a staged manner.

FFS where are they now, that is what happens when the media, the politicians and the gullible public, stuff up a good plan.

 

[sptrawler]

I see a future involving diesel.

The ultimate stupidity since oil is the one energy resource we're mostly reliant on imports for but it's a reality that setting up even a thousand diesel generators is quicker than anything else so a very likely outcome in practice. Not a good outcome but I can foresee it happening.

Been there done that.
Problem mining company, "we can't supply the Town any more, it isn't or responsibility".

Government to manager, "the Town will be switched off in x weeks, fix it".

Manager to plebs, "Get whatever gensets we have mounted to trucks, and on site in x weeks".

Plebs to Manager, " we have just enough diesel gensets, but they have different voltage alternators and we don't have compatible transformers".

Manager to plebs, "Don't give me excuses, give me results'.

Manager out!!! lol

Next phase, temporary installation replacement, with permanent installation.

Manager to plebs, " Is unit one running"?

Plebs, "Yes it is synchronised to the system, but we have just commissioned it and any failure will take 20 minutes for an air re-start".

Manager to plebs, "a line crew will be there tommorrow, to cut the mine feed to the town".

Plebs to Manager, " you must be ffing joking"

Manager, "No"

The thing I find funny, is all these people on the internet, who think they have a clue. lol

 

[SirRumpole]

Turnbull had the sense to commission a highly regarded scientist and engineer called Alan Finkel to produce recommendations on the future of our electricity market.

He decided to accept all but one recommendation and the whole thing fell apart. Labor said they would implement all of it including the emmissions intensity provisions, but because that offended the Libs Right wing the whole thing has stalled.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Turnbull should have accepted the whole lot with the agreement of Labor if necessary, but he decided it wasn't worth his job. His gutlessness has contributed to the black hole in energy policy that we have now and a five year delay in getting any solution to the problem.

 

[sptrawler]

Turnbull had the sense to commission a highly regarded scientist and engineer called Alan Finkel to produce recommendations on the future of our electricity market.

He decided to accept all but one recommendation and the whole thing fell apart. Labor said they would implement all of it including the emmissions intensity provisions, but because that offended the Libs Right wing the whole thing has stalled.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Turnbull should have accepted the whole lot with the agreement of Labor if necessary, but he decided it wasn't worth his job. His gutlessness has contributed to the black hole in energy policy that we have now and a five year delay in getting any solution to the problem.

Well Rumpy, I'm sure you will get your wish with a Labor Government, I hope they do a better job than this lot.
But we LNP supporters did say, Turnbull would be a disaster, didn't we?

In W.A I must say, Labor haven't trashed the previous Governments initiatives, which is a plus.
Also they have adopted a sensible approach to running the show, I've been pleasantly surprised, they have been very similar to Barnett.
Measured approach, demand a fair deal on the GST, and keep upgrading infrastructure.

 

[Smurf1976]

If the media reports are accurate then it seems Dutton's having another go as early as tomorrow.

As for the energy stuff, well the big problem I'm seeing is that time has run out so far as the best options are concerned and if we keep going down this track then there will end up being no time left in which to do anything at all or at least not anything which doesn't involve lots of diesels housed in shipping containers.

That, diesels in containers hooked up to the grid, is what you do when there's an unexpected infrastructure failure or some sort of natural disaster. It's not what anyone sensibly plans to do that's for sure. We already import somewhere around $1 billion worth of petroleum fuels every fortnight so of all possible resources we could use to generate power, anything produced from oil is surely the least sensible choice.

In defence of the private energy companies though - well would you invest big $ with all this policy uncertainty going on around you? Not many would.

 

[sptrawler]

If the media reports are accurate then it seems Dutton's having another go as early as tomorrow.

As for the energy stuff, well the big problem I'm seeing is that time has run out so far as the best options are concerned and if we keep going down this track then there will end up being no time left in which to do anything at all or at least not anything which doesn't involve lots of diesels housed in shipping containers.

That, diesels in containers hooked up to the grid, is what you do when there's an unexpected infrastructure failure or some sort of natural disaster. It's not what anyone sensibly plans to do that's for sure. We already import somewhere around $1 billion worth of petroleum fuels every fortnight.

The problem with that smurph, Industry can't invest billions of dollars when they don't have a reliable power supply and putting in their own power means varying fuel costs.
Why would they bother?
This is unfortunately where Abbott was coming from, but he is the devil re incarnated according to the media, I'm no Abbott fan but what he says makes sense.
Labor are railroading the vote their way, on the carbon ticket, but from my experience through life they will do an about face when in office.
They know the problems, it just isn't worth winning the argument, when you can wait until the public want the problem fixed.
The one thing about working in the unions, you know how to work the crowd, whether your point is right or wrong. You work out what they want to hear, and give them the worst case scenario for the opposing view.
With regard Energy companies, I would be shutting down coal and getting paid to put in renewable's. Why wouldn't you?
If it goes pear shaped, the government will pay you to put in coal again, it is a win win.
Diesels in containers might work in Tassie, I don't think they will work in Sydney, Melbourne.
Maybe Walgett, Dubbo.

 

[fiftyeight]

In W.A I must say, Labor haven't trashed the previous Governments initiatives

They trashed Roe 8 which pi55es me off no end every time I am stuck in traffic trying to get to the freeway. See im not just a left greenie, finish clearing Beeliar wetlands and hurry up and build Roe 8

 

[Tisme]

This seems to be the current problem. Just tack **** on to the grid. Or add more solar to roofs.

A total overhaul would be a massive project. And also very needed.
But are australian governments even capable of getting it done these days.

That **** they tack on .... when was the last time you saw your neighbour carry out maintenance on his solar panels, even wash them? My feel is that gradual degradation of distributed renewables is going to be an issue in the equation of economies of scale.

 

[explod]

This thread is about the Liberal Government.

They are currently in a civil war. How about some back on topic.

Tune in to ABC 24 now.

 

[Tisme]

This thread is about the Liberal Government.

They are currently in a civil war. How about some back on topic.

Tune in to ABC 24 now.

The spill is because of the NEG disagreement

 

[SirRumpole]

We need an election ASAP.

This government is cr@p whoever is in charge.

Drain the swamp and let the people decide.

 

[Macquack]

If the media reports are accurate then it seems Dutton's having another go as early as tomorrow.

I don't get it. Doesn't a commitment to a leader last at least 24 hours.

 

[PZ.]

Yeah - I reckon Dutton should join a union