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The ScoMo Government (3 Viewers)

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The states have done all the heavy lifting as far as COVID goes taking on federal responsibilities such as quarantine and in some cases age care.
In amongst this they have been attacked by the federal government for closing borders while the feds bar you from even leaving Australia while stopping Australians from entering Australia while letting their mates out / back in, not a good look.
Trouble is, the broad concept is equally true if you go back 18 months to a time when "COVID" wasn't a term anyone would have recognised.

Pick pretty much any issue in Australia over the past decade or so and to the extent there's been real progress, that progress has come about due to some combination of the efforts of state governments, councils, business and individuals.

So far as leadership goes, the federal government's been nothing more than a passenger on pretty much every issue.

Just because I'll freely point out deficiencies in Labor doesn't mean I think the Coalition's any good either. Both are seriously lacking in ability to take a comprehensive, unbiased approach to any situation without trying to skew it for political gain.

To the extent that I do have any real bias, well I'd like Labor to properly understand where they've gone wrong and genuinely fix that. Get back to aligning with the workers and get elected to government. :2twocents
 
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IFocus

You are arguing with a Galah
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Both are seriously lacking in ability to take a comprehensive, unbiased approach to any situation without trying to skew it for political gain.


I think everyone understands politics is played no matter who is in the game, but I don't understand why Labor is talked about as though they are or have been in government.

After Abbott (remember zombie budgets) thrown out by his own MP's (2years) Turnbul hamstrung by the minority right thrown out by his own MP's and now Morrison lets face it given situations make PMs has failed repeatedly while covering up and avoiding repeated scandal's.

As I have pointed out Liberals in power for 19 years Labor 6 any problems today have nothing to do with Labor.

Nick picking Labor while penalty rates get stripped from the weakest making SFA difference, running secret trials and convicting people in secret (can anyone really believe this?...silence), robo debt totally illegal (was it 2000 suicides), Ministers clearly having conflict of interests, a rape in a ministers office covered up, $10's / $100's of millions clearly corruptly distributed for political gain, obstruction to enquiry into the banks that revealed rape of Australians and their wealth (findings still not implemented) and of course far worse.

No wages growth and the supper unlikely to be increased...really?

Surely this is not good?

What's Labor got to do with the above?
 
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I think everyone understands politics is played no matter who is in the game, but I don't understand why Labor is talked about as though they are or have been in government.
For the reason that it would be the Coalition being talked about if Labor had been in government for years and made a mess.

In any situation where someone proposes a change, the onus is on them to convince those making the decision that the proposed change warrants the risk of uncertainty versus the devil they know.

That goes for anything from who runs the country through to your household appliances. If there's something already in place and I'm proposing to get rid of that and replace it, well the onus is on me to convince whoever's making the decision that this would be a good idea. In the absence of that, by default the existing arrangement is the lower risk option since its downsides are known.

It also comes back to the point you make:

penalty rates get stripped from the weakest making SFA difference, running secret trials and convicting people in secret (can anyone really believe this?...silence), robo debt totally illegal (was it 2000 suicides), Ministers clearly having conflict of interests, a rape in a ministers office covered up, $10's / $100's of millions clearly corruptly distributed for political gain

And yet despite all that and much more, Labor still hasn't managed to win in recent years.

That's a bit like saying that if I'm a runner, and I turn up at the track and find that there's a few real professional athletes there including one who really did go to the Olympics well then I've got a pretty good excuse for not winning that race. Nobody's going to say I'm crap if the competition was clearly brilliant and I still finished in a respectable time. Even the harshest critic is likely to point to the professionals and that they were bound to win.

If however I turn up at the same track and there's an assortment of unfit, overweight people wearing gumboots well then I'll be judged far more harshly if I don't win that race. Given how hopeless the competition is, it's an equally harsh reflection on me if I can't beat them.

Personally I'm not rusted on to either party but I can see why Labor hasn't been winning elections at the federal level. In short, the party hasn't convinced the masses that it has real, actual solutions to the problems so many are facing indeed it seems uncomfortably close to those who want more of the same.

That latter bit's what does the real damage in my view. Being perceived as too close to the wrong people.

The Coalition is shocking in my view but if Labor wants to change that, if they want to get elected, well the onus is on them to convince the masses that they actually do have a better plan. That they've failed to so is a failing in itself and that weakness ultimately enables the Coalition to get away with so much.

Or in other words - a weak opposition begets poor government and vice versa, a strong opposition forces the government to lift their game too. :2twocents
 
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For the reason that it would be the Coalition being talked about if Labor had been in government for years and made a mess.

In any situation where someone proposes a change, the onus is on them to convince those making the decision that the proposed change warrants the risk of uncertainty versus the devil they know.

That goes for anything from who runs the country through to your household appliances. If there's something already in place and I'm proposing to get rid of that and replace it, well the onus is on me to convince whoever's making the decision that this would be a good idea. In the absence of that, by default the existing arrangement is the lower risk option since its downsides are known.

It also comes back to the point you make:



And yet despite all that and much more, Labor still hasn't managed to win in recent years.

That's a bit like saying that if I'm a runner, and I turn up at the track and find that there's a few real professional athletes there including one who really did go to the Olympics well then I've got a pretty good excuse for not winning that race. Nobody's going to say I'm crap if the competition was clearly brilliant and I still finished in a respectable time. Even the harshest critic is likely to point to the professionals and that they were bound to win.

If however I turn up at the same track and there's an assortment of unfit, overweight people wearing gumboots well then I'll be judged far more harshly if I don't win that race. Given how hopeless the competition is, it's an equally harsh reflection on me if I can't beat them.

Personally I'm not rusted on to either party but I can see why Labor hasn't been winning elections at the federal level. In short, the party hasn't convinced the masses that it has real, actual solutions to the problems so many are facing indeed it seems uncomfortably close to those who want more of the same.

That latter bit's what does the real damage in my view. Being perceived as too close to the wrong people.

The Coalition is shocking in my view but if Labor wants to change that, if they want to get elected, well the onus is on them to convince the masses that they actually do have a better plan. That they've failed to so is a failing in itself and that weakness ultimately enables the Coalition to get away with so much.

Or in other words - a weak opposition begets poor government and vice versa, a strong opposition forces the government to lift their game too. :2twocents

You only have to go back to the Beazley days of Labor to realise how difficult it is for Labor to win from Opposition.

Beazley was a very likeable and passionate leader who regularly out polled John Howard, but kept losing to a party who's only policies were to be nasty to refugees, cut spending and avoid having any other policies.

Keep it simple was a winning strategy for the LNP in those days, and we saw it in the last election where Labor presented a big target and got shot full of holes.

Rudd won because the Howard government was tired, and Rudd presented a "conservative" alternative. He went out of his way to say that there was zero difference between him and Howard on tax policy, thus avoiding the "big spending big taxing" line of attack.

As you rightly infer, Labor has to get back to supporting the ordinary worker, the people who get up every day and go to work and pay their taxes. Any sign that Labor is going to spend big will have these people wondering whether they are going to pick up the bill.

So if Labor has big spending plans, they better make it clear that the money is coming from business, high income earners or resources, anywhere other than the median wage earners who are already struggling with less secure employment and rising house prices.
 
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IFocus

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As you rightly infer, Labor has to get back to supporting the ordinary worker, the people who get up every day and go to work and pay their taxes. Any sign that Labor is going to spend big will have these people wondering whether they are going to pick up the bill.

I am not sure too many think they are ordinary workers any more, upwardly mobile, investors, (is there anyone not using negative gearing), contract labour, subies, endless part time / causal workers, all non unionised believing Morrison is just a daggy dad wouldn't hurt anyone (unless you are a boat refugee left to rot, Robo debt, bush fire victims or community club in Labor seats, stunningly successful female CEO of Australia Post and so on... note a trend here).

The majority have voted for the above and are likely to again next election.

The wealth division in Australia widens every day accelerating under this government as they feed cheap labour to their sponsors while importing skilled work forces keeping unions out of the picture...all with no wages growth.

Truly a win win.

Can Labor win? every chance they wont.
 
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I am not sure too many think they are ordinary workers any more, upwardly mobile, investors, (is there anyone not using negative gearing), contract labour, subies, endless part time / causal workers, all non unionised believing Morrison is just a daggy dad wouldn't hurt anyone (unless you are a boat refugee left to rot, Robo debt, bush fire victims or community club in Labor seats, stunningly successful female CEO of Australia Post and so on... note a trend here).

The majority have voted for the above and are likely to again next election.

The wealth division in Australia widens every day accelerating under this government as they feed cheap labour to their sponsors while importing skilled work forces keeping unions out of the picture...all with no wages growth.

Truly a win win.

Can Labor win? every chance they wont.
I think Labor can win, both you and Rumpy have nailed it, the coalition have had every opportunity to enact change, they have done nothing but tread water.
However as Rumpy and smurf said, if Labor come out with a plan that doesnt pass the pub test, people will always take the boring safe option.
Last election Bill had way too many vested interests in his ear and didnt spend enough time vetting their ideas, Im sure Albo wont fall into the same trap.
Australia is at the crossroad ATM, unless someone comes up with a long term sustainable plan, to stop the slide into a third world economy, the demise of the middle class is inevitable.
The coalition has shown they are struggling to overcome internal party politics, to bring about any meaningful change, it gives Labor the opportunity to present a meaningful plan, but it is up to them to think it through and make sure it takes the majority of the working class with them.
McGowan has shown, it isn't about Labor or Liberal, it is about showing leadership for all, not just their inner circle of mates and pet sectors.

As we say it isn't rocket science, being a good leader, is about taking everyone along, not demonising and finger pointing.
 
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I am not sure too many think they are ordinary workers any more, upwardly mobile, investors, (is there anyone not using negative gearing), contract labour, subies, endless part time / causal workers, all non unionised believing Morrison is just a daggy dad wouldn't hurt anyone (unless you are a boat refugee left to rot, Robo debt, bush fire victims or community club in Labor seats, stunningly successful female CEO of Australia Post and so on... note a trend here).

The majority have voted for the above and are likely to again next election.

The wealth division in Australia widens every day accelerating under this government as they feed cheap labour to their sponsors while importing skilled work forces keeping unions out of the picture...all with no wages growth.

Truly a win win.

Can Labor win? every chance they wont.
How can I like this twice
 
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Which is basically what was proposed.

Point 2 - stopping the refund of excess tax paid for those who simply don't earn enough to have been required to pay it, whilst continuing to fully impute that tax paid for higher income individuals, fits within that pretty well.

That's the single most regressive policy I can recall seeing from any side of politics in a very long time.

It could apply to anyone but there's a "class" element in that it's blue collar and other non-profession workers who tend to end up on the scrapheap through no fault of their own. They're the ones who know they need investments outside super and may well be living on that for a decade or more. The smart ones have generally worked that out at a pretty young age.

This was my point 1 about regressive .....worse than robodebt which was illegal and cost lives not 5k to smsf
 
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Elections are won and lost at the margins nowadays.
Morrison picked up the Trump types - ie, typically lesser educated - and gained only 4 seats to win.
Morrison's policy was to have as few as possible and simply attack everything Labor put up. Although his claims were transparently poor, enough people accepted them.
While Morrison and his team make lots of claims about how wonderful they have been in recent years, when scrutinised closely very few match his hype.
Morrison is the worst PM we have had since McMahon, and needs his prayers to be answered in order to win again.
 
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As everyone said at the time, Morrison didnt win the election, Labor lost the unlosable election.
No matter how it is dressed up, it was a huge stuff up which left a massive hole, to backfill.
They certainly werent beaten by a dynamic, awe inspiring coalition.
 
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Im glad
Imagine you lot on here if Labor had been in charge
Look at the constant attack on Andrews compared with Morrison even though quarantine is a federal responsibilty....anyway Im off to the pub to SECURE myself a pint....
 
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Im glad
Imagine you lot on here if Labor had been in charge
Look at the constant attack on Andrews compared with Morrison even though quarantine is a federal responsibilty....anyway Im off to the pub to SECURE myself a pint....
Mate I voted for McGowan, I know sod all about Andrews, but throwing blame around on both sides seems to be the order of the day.
But it doesn't work well with 'normal' voters, blaming the States then saying it's a Federal responsibility.
Then blaming the Federal, then saying it is a State responsibility, just confuses and pizzes people off, because it is seen as a cop out.
I just hope that isn't rolled out as an election plan, that will backfire worse than the last election, what is and isn't the States responsibility has become obvious, when Morrison said open the borders and the Premiers said "sod off".
Quarantine and border closures got McGowan a lot of credibility, taking ownership of State issues and responsibilities, that's why I voted for him.
We don't need the P.M to look after W.A's bushfires, border closures or quarantine, we are managing it all fine.
There is no wonder a Republic can never get up, when everyone is looking for someone to blame.
 
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Mate I voted for McGowan, I know sod all about Andrews, but throwing blame around on both sides seems to be the order of the day.
But it doesn't work well with 'normal' voters, blaming the States then saying it's a Federal responsibility.
Then blaming the Federal, then saying it is a State responsibility, just confuses and pizzes people off, because it is seen as a cop out.
I just hope that isn't rolled out as an election plan, that will backfire worse than the last election, what is and isn't the States responsibility has become obvious, when Morrison said open the borders and the Premiers said "sod off".
Quarantine and border closures got McGowan a lot of credibility, taking ownership of State issues and responsibilities, that's why I voted for him.
We don't need the P.M to look after W.A's bushfires, border closures or quarantine, we are managing it all fine.
There is no wonder a Republic can never get up, when everyone is looking for someone to blame.
Maaaaaate I can assure you on a Scomo thread I can find enough faults with the current feds not to mention Labor it comes from the likes of you
 
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Maaaaaate I can assure you on a Scomo thread I can find enough faults with the current feds not to mention Labor it comes from the likes of you
Maaaaaaaaaaaaate, you wouldn't vote for anything other than Labor, even if you were threatened with death, but unfortunately you are a minority.
Labor have to appeal to everyone, not just cashed up bogans and inner city elites, that is the issue.
When the majority voted for Morrison, it showed how far out of touch Labor were, they will get your vote anyway.
The issue is they need mine and other mainstream Australians, they already have the rich and the rusted on. :xyxthumbs
Start and talk about the improvements Labor are suggesting, not just pasting up negative Morrison media diatribe, that didn't win labor office last time it wont this time.
The thinking Australians want an alternative, not just everyone saying this lot are $hit, next year there is every chance everything will be booming so that wont cut it.
Think beyond the dumb copy and past and explain what Labor are offering, it actually is starting to look positive.
 

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