The future of energy generation and storage

[qldfrog]

Yes.

Irrigation pumping is one but even that isn't consistent. Some places the normal way is electricity, others it's a fuel driven pump, others I've seen it done using the PTO from a tractor to drive the pump.

I don't really know the history of it in other states but in Tas farmers have always been encouraged farmers to irrigate with off-peak electricity. In the pre-electronic metering days that was done with simply two rotating disc meters and a mechanical timer. Modern way of doing it's fully electronic.

The other big one is dairy. Refrigeration, milking machines and for reasons I'm unsure of they also use a lot of hot water that's heated to a fairly high temperature (substantially higher than household hot water, I recall it being 82 degrees but don't quote me on that). Again the encouragement was always to heat the water using off-peak electricity and there was a tariff for that purpose which provided supply during the middle of the day as well as overnight which, with the recommended element to storage ratio of 32 Watts per litre, enabled the hot water to be refilled twice daily between milking.

Which raises another important point that utilities used to actively work with industry to come up with mutually acceptable ways of doing things. Means by which to pump or heat water whilst keeping peak demand and cost as low as possible. Everyone wins. That this sort of thing no longer really happens is part of where it's gone wrong.....

Looking at overall farm (including forestry and fishing) energy use in total, you're absolutely right that it mostly isn't electric.

Figures may not add to 100% due to rounding of the source data. All data is 2022-23 from Australian Government statistics - I've just converted it from the raw form to % of total.

National:
Diesel & Petrol = 89.2%
LPG = 1.8%
Natural gas = 1.9%
Electricity = 6.8%

NSW:
Diesel & Petrol = 88.8%
LPG = 1.8%
Natural gas = 1.6%
Electricity = 7.7%

Vic:
Diesel & Petrol = 71.8%
LPG = 1.4%
Natural gas = 10.8%
Electricity = 15.8%

Qld:
Diesel & Petrol = 93.7%
LPG = 1.9%
Natural gas = 0.2%
Electricity = 4.1%

WA:
Diesel & Petrol = 95.4%
LPG = 1.9%
Natural gas = 0.1%
Electricity = 2.4%

SA:
Diesel & Petrol = 87.7%
LPG = 1.7%
Natural gas = 0.5%
Electricity = 9.8%

Tas:
Diesel & Petrol = 90.7%
LPG = 1.8%
Natural gas = 0.3%
Electricity = 7.0%

NT:
Diesel & Petrol = 90.7%
LPG = 1.7%
Natural gas = zero
Electricity = 7.4%

So there's a much higher use of fixed in place energy sources, that is electricity and natural gas, in Victoria compared to other states. What that's for I'm really not sure, but I'm assuming irrigation pumping would at least partly explain it along with dairy.

Getting out of my depth there on the farming side though.

Victoria is small, smaller farms more intense and easier to draw a power line for fixed use: think vegetable, orchard, dairy
Anything broad acre farming: cattle sheep or massive cereal sorghum fields nope
Anyway, should net zero succeed, it will be really hard to be fed.
If petrol and diesel are used less overall, it will become less reliable much more expensive to provide it in remote areas and there is no replacement currently
Synfuels could be the way out but it is politically incorrect : net zero as a pretext to limit individual transport not an aim ,otherwise we would be pushing syngas to allow existing fleet use.

 

[sptrawler]

I think it was mentioned in this thread, that our dependance on imported batteries, could end up becoming a system security issue.
The clever country, I think not.

Main supplier to Australia’s most powerful big battery warns it may go out of business

Main supplier to the most powerful battery built in Australia – and a crucial part of the replacement plan for the Eraring coal plant – was warned it may go out of business.

reneweconomy.com.au

The US-based Powin, the main supplier to the Waratah Super Battery in New South Wales, the most powerful big battery to be built in the country, has warned that it may go out of business and be forced to lay off all its staff within weeks.

Powin has filed a letter with regulatory authorities in the US state of Oregon, where it is based, warning that it may be forced to shut down by July 28, or earlier, if business conditions do not improve.

The Waratah Super Battery, sized at 850 megawatts (MW) and 1680 megawatt hours (1680 MWh), is the most powerful battery to be built in Australia, and one of the most powerful in the world. At 850 MW, it is the biggest single unit of any type to be connected to the Australian grid.

It is not immediately clear what the source of Powin’s problems are, but as a US-based battery supplier, and using cells from Chinese manufacturers, it is likely to be badly affected by the proposed tariffs, and multiple tariff changes, announced by President Donald Trump and his administration.

 

[qldfrog]

Nice clean air, beautiful beaches, sparkling water, no food, no job, back to the primal state..a real program....

 

[sptrawler]

Nice clean air, beautiful beaches, sparkling water, no food, no job, back to the primal state..a real program....
View attachment 201164

As the old saying goes, the road to hell, is littered with good intent.
It is difficult to see how these energy intensive process industries, will stay in business IMO.
I guess the up side is there will be less renewables required, if they all close down and it will free up workers to build more social housing.

 

[qldfrog]

As the old saying goes, the road to hell, is littered with good intent.
It is difficult to see how these energy intensive process industries, will stay in business IMO.
I guess the up side is there will be less renewables required, if they all close down and it will free up workers to build more social housing.

But no money to pay for it..

 

[SirRumpole]

But no money to pay for it..

Its the same principle as Whyalla.

The facility is necessary for national security so the government should take it over, ideology be damned.

 

[qldfrog]

Its the same principle as Whyalla.

The facility is necessary for national security so the government should take it over, ideology be damned.

Government is not an infinite well of money, being broke and on foreign drip is not great for national security either....

 

[sptrawler]

Government is not an infinite well of money, being broke and on foreign drip is not great for national security either....

There in lies the problem, ideology driving an agenda that has the unintended consequence of sending your productive industries broke, but if you try to save them you also go broke.
Reality catching up with ideology, yet again.
If renewables were cheaper to operate smelters with, the private sector would already be using them.

 

[qldfrog]

There in lies the problem, ideology driving an agenda that has the unintended consequence of sending your productive industries broke, but if you try to save them you also go broke.
Reality catching up with ideology, yet again.
If renewables were cheaper to operate smelters with, the private sector would already be using them.

Indeed, and FMG is now trying to suppress the fuel excise refund of his competitors..so de facto adding a tax on them only.. obviously under the name of saving the planet...
Proof if need be that the green mining is not cheaper, but who would have believed that
And this is a microcosm of the grid dilemma

 

[sptrawler]

Indeed, and FMG is now trying to suppress the fuel excise refund of his competitors..so de facto adding a tax on them only.. obviously under the name of saving the planet...
Proof if need be that the green mining is not cheaper, but who would have believed that
And this is a microcosm of the grid dilemma

Mining and the emissions from it are a small part of the economic equation IMO.

It is the value adding, that seperates first and second world economies, from third world economies.

It is the value adding that pays for first world lifestyles and welfare systems, that is what we will have trouble supporting, if renewables can't support value adding processes and grow value adding industries.

 

[Smurf1976]

Move along now everybody, nothing to see here, move along now......

Worksafe investigating air duct collapse at Gippsland power station

Yallourn Power Station, considered the region's most unreliable, has been forced to put one of its units offline for weeks after an air duct collapsed.

www.abc.net.au

At Yallourn power station (Vic). It's only a duct but still, it's a mishap and will have the affected unit out of service for a while.

 

[SirRumpole]

Government is not an infinite well of money, being broke and on foreign drip is not great for national security either....

We keep on giving away our natural resources at prices so cheap that other countries can make a profit selling them back to us.

How stupid is that?

We could and should put an export tax on all our natural resources so we get a fair price for them, then invest the returns in essential industries like the power grid for one.

 

[qldfrog]

We keep on giving away our natural resources at prices so cheap that other countries can make a profit selling them back to us.

How stupid is that?

We could and should put an export tax on all our natural resources so we get a fair price for them, then invest the returns in essential industries like the power grid for one.

With the added benefit vs royalties that there then exists a $ advantage using these minerals or fuels here ,wo taxes, to add value...

 

[qldfrog]

Move along now everybody, nothing to see here, move along now......

Worksafe investigating air duct collapse at Gippsland power station

Yallourn Power Station, considered the region's most unreliable, has been forced to put one of its units offline for weeks after an air duct collapsed.

www.abc.net.au

At Yallourn power station (Vic). It's only a duct but still, it's a mishap and will have the affected unit out of service for a while.

View attachment 201209

Interesting article mr @Smurf1976 The unit currently down was built in 1974, the site 1921!.
I wonder how many wind or solar farms build now will still be running in 2130, with panels or windmill more than 50y old
This is stunning 22% of Victoria grid power still produced today by a unit half century old.
That a great engineering feat imho
Obviously being forced to switch off in less than 3y, noone is going to treat rust surface or change rusted bolts.
In a month's time, the greenies puppets wil show you with graphs how unreliable fossil fuels stations are vs the new green power .

 

[sptrawler]

We keep on giving away our natural resources at prices so cheap that other countries can make a profit selling them back to us.

How stupid is that?

We could and should put an export tax on all our natural resources so we get a fair price for them, then invest the returns in essential industries like the power grid for one.

Billionaire's business woes see hundreds of Australian workers sent home

With one mine still temporarily shut down and another smelter about to pause its operations, GFG Alliance workers across Australia are being left in limbo as Sanjeev Gupta's business woes continue.

www.abc.net.au

Months after British industrialist Sanjeev Gupta was effectively stripped of ownership of his South Australian steelworks, hundreds of workers at his New South Wales coal mine remain stood down, and those at his Tasmanian smelter are about to be.

The uncertainty is causing anger and frustration.

"The future looks grim," said Jimmy Baker, who has worked at the Tahmoor coal mine in NSW for the past 20 years.


My thoughts:
IMO this is going to be the reality for a lot of people, hopefully someone has a plan, that involves utilising the technical skills that otherwise will be lost by the closure of these industries.

 

[mullokintyre]

Move along now everybody, nothing to see here, move along now......

Worksafe investigating air duct collapse at Gippsland power station

Yallourn Power Station, considered the region's most unreliable, has been forced to put one of its units offline for weeks after an air duct collapsed.

www.abc.net.au

At Yallourn power station (Vic). It's only a duct but still, it's a mishap and will have the affected unit out of service for a while.

View attachment 201209

loks like its covered Duct tape ...
I'll get my coat.
Mick

 

[qldfrog]

Billionaire's business woes see hundreds of Australian workers sent home

With one mine still temporarily shut down and another smelter about to pause its operations, GFG Alliance workers across Australia are being left in limbo as Sanjeev Gupta's business woes continue.

www.abc.net.au

Months after British industrialist Sanjeev Gupta was effectively stripped of ownership of his South Australian steelworks, hundreds of workers at his New South Wales coal mine remain stood down, and those at his Tasmanian smelter are about to be.

The uncertainty is causing anger and frustration.

"The future looks grim," said Jimmy Baker, who has worked at the Tahmoor coal mine in NSW for the past 20 years.


My thoughts:
IMO this is going to be the reality for a lot of people, hopefully someone has a plan, that involves utilising the technical skills that otherwise will be lost by the closure of these industries.

There is a plan: net zero and the ALP has the mandate.
Voters have decided.. priority is reducing harvest yield by cutting CO2
Blackouts are a benefit

 

[IFocus]

Move along now everybody, nothing to see here, move along now......

Worksafe investigating air duct collapse at Gippsland power station

Yallourn Power Station, considered the region's most unreliable, has been forced to put one of its units offline for weeks after an air duct collapsed.

www.abc.net.au

At Yallourn power station (Vic). It's only a duct but still, it's a mishap and will have the affected unit out of service for a while.

View attachment 201209

NDT testing must have missed that bit.... if done at all?

 

[Smurf1976]

Interesting article mr @Smurf1976 The unit currently down was built in 1974, the site 1921!.

As a brief summary history of power generation at Yallourn:

1918 - Victorian state government establishes the State Electricity Commission, the primary aim of which was to (1) switch Melbourne's electricity supply to the use of local resources rather than imports and (2) in due course electrify the entire state.

Establishment of a brown coal mine, power station and briquette works at Yallourn with a transmission line to Melbourne was the key pillar of that plan. The power station would provide much needed additional generating capacity whilst the briquettes would be railed to Melbourne and used to fuel existing generating plant.

Major problem = complete lack of experience with the use of brown coal in Australia, or indeed anywhere outside Germany, and German brown coal is considerably drier than that found at Yallourn. This made the original installation somewhat experimental in terms of the boilers using coal with a 65% water content.

Generating plant installed and year:

A station:
4 x 12.5MW = 1924
1 x 12.5MW = 1925
1 x 12.5MW = 1928
Total = 75MW

B station:
1 x 25MW = 1932
1 x 25MW = 1935
2 x 25MW = 1938
Total = 100MW

C station:
1 x 50MW = 1954
1 x 50MW = 1955
1 x 6MW = 1956
Total = 106MW

D station:
1 x 50MW = 1957
1 x 50MW = 1958
Total = 100MW

E station:
1 x 120MW = 1961
1 x 120MW = 1962
Total = 240MW

W station:
1 x 350MW = 1973
1 x 350MW = 1975
2 x 375MW = 1981
Total = 1450MW, has been uprated slightly to 1480MW

Only W station remains in operation today, the rest having been demolished.

For those curious about that little 6MW machine, in short the purpose was as a back pressure turbine to enable steam supply from C&D stations (which were interconnected with each other on the steam side) to A&B stations which ran at a considerably lower pressure. C & D both incorporated 1 spare boiler each (6 installed versus 5 required), the intent being the 2 spare boilers and the back pressure turbine provided backup across all four stations A - D. Noting that boiler issues accounted for the majority of faults hence that approach.

E & W stations built as unitised plant, one boiler per turbine not connected to each other or to anything else.

And the W comes from..... West. Because it's physically to the West of the others which were all in a row. Simple as that, no complexity there in the naming.

In terms of notable people: Sir John Monash turned the first sod and was in charge of the original A station and mine development. Queen Elizabeth 2 visited the Yallourn power stations in 1954.

 

[Smurf1976]

The problem here isn't just about solar panels per se. It's more that we shouldn't have the problem in the first place.

Because decent solar panels will last several decades and that being so, solar simply hasn't been common for long enough that we ought to have a waste disposal issue. Mainstream use really only got underway in 2009 after all, it's relatively recent, so apart from the odd random panel damaged by accident, there just shouldn't be that much waste and certainly not 4 million of them a year or 16,000 each and every working day (Monday to Friday).

Arguments for solar versus other sources of electricity aside, it's folly to not at least be doing any of them as well as possible. I see that as symptomatic of broader problems in the economy, it's another example of waste, both physical and economic, that need not occur.