The future of energy generation and storage

[SirRumpole]

Bowen open to carbon tariff, says Australia must 'do more' to hit 2030 goal

The energy minister says the re-approved North West Shelf gas plant would not jeopardise Australia's emissions goals because the site is required to hit net zero.

www.abc.net.au

From the article:

A "carbon tariff" on dirty cement or steel made elsewhere could be considered in the Albanese government's second term, as Energy Minister Chris Bowen concedes Australia must "do more" to achieve its climate targets.

Mr Bowen said he was willing to consider new policies if required, including the use of tariffs to ensure that companies do not shift emitting activities offshore to evade the intent of Australia's targets.

Ah tariffs, the most beautiful word in the English language.

 

[sptrawler]

Why wouldn't he be?

I think he should be, same as I think Trump putting tariffs on is the obvious way forward, both are about maintaining a manufacturing base.
Many don't agree and see it as an unnecessary tax on the consumer that shouldn't be deployed.

 

[sptrawler]

Ah tariffs, the most beautiful word in the English language.

Yes, you and I have been saying they are the obvious way forward, for a long time. There aren't many other options available.

With regard Bowen's tariff suggestion, as with the car industry in Australia, the choice will come down to whether it is viable to keep manufacturing here.
The new variable is whether the added cost of renewable energy, or if renewables can be used for the process and do it economically .

 

[macca]

Yes, you and I have been saying they are the obvious way forward, for a long time. There aren't many other options available.

With regard Bowen's tariff suggestion, as with the car industry in Australia, the choice will come down to whether it is viable to keep manufacturing here with renewables.

According to our local smelter, renewables make it very difficult to stay in business.

Being Unreliable and Expensive, when current supply contracts expire they will decide to stay or close

I believe Great big fat subsidies will be required to stay

 

[sptrawler]

According to our local smelter, renewables make it very difficult to stay in business.

Being Unreliable and Expensive, when current supply contracts expire they will decide stay or close

I believe Great big fat subsidies will be required to stay

Most energy intensive processes will be doing exactly the same IMO.

A lot will be trying to word the closure carefully, as to not antagonise the establishment, no point in burning bridges.

 

[qldfrog]

During that time

World-first mini nuclear plant ready to power 526,000 homes in China

China’s first commercial small modular nuclear reactor, Linglong-1, is now in the final installation phase.

interestingengineering.com

 

[Knobby22]

During that time

World-first mini nuclear plant ready to power 526,000 homes in China

China’s first commercial small modular nuclear reactor, Linglong-1, is now in the final installation phase.

interestingengineering.com

China ahead again.

 

[sptrawler]

Bowen open to carbon tariff, says Australia must 'do more' to hit 2030 goal

The energy minister says the re-approved North West Shelf gas plant would not jeopardise Australia's emissions goals because the site is required to hit net zero.

www.abc.net.au

From the article:

A "carbon tariff" on dirty cement or steel made elsewhere could be considered in the Albanese government's second term, as Energy Minister Chris Bowen concedes Australia must "do more" to achieve its climate targets.

Mr Bowen said he was willing to consider new policies if required, including the use of tariffs to ensure that companies do not shift emitting activities offshore to evade the intent of Australia's targets.

Therein lies the conundrum, regarding protecting your own energy intensive industries and getting the ideology ahead of the technology.

If your product costs more, than the imported product, how do you get people to buy it ? Ask Chris.

Do politicians actually think about their policies? Doubtful IMO.

Today's paper.

 

[SirRumpole]

Therein lies the conundrum, regarding protecting your own energy intensive industries and getting the ideology ahead of the technology.

If your product costs more, than the imported product, how do you get people to buy it ? Ask Chris.

Do politicians actually think about their policies? Doubtful IMO.

Today's paper.

View attachment 200737

So we use more of our own steel and aluminium for local requirements, it's not rocket science.

 

[sptrawler]

So we use more of our own steel and aluminium for local requirements, it's not rocket science.

Which is what we should have always done.
It may well have stopped a lot of building faults with substandard steel.

 

[Smurf1976]

So we use more of our own steel and aluminium for local requirements, it's not rocket science.

Trouble is we really need to be exporting those for trade balance reasons and simply to attain economies of scale in those industries.

I don't know the current figure, but the zinc works in Tasmania used to export to about 70 countries. That's just one example.

What we really need to be doing in my view is tilting the tax system so as to very firmly favour an arrangement that anything mined in Australia is refined in Australia at least through to the stage of being actual metal.

Doesn't need to be at the same site, and that's often impractical, but so long as it's done somewhere in Australia that's fine - eg mine it in the middle of nowhere and refine it at Kwinana, Whyalla, Bell Bay, Newcastle, Gladstone or wherever but the refinery needs to be somewhere in Australia.

Reason for separate location is simply scale and logistics. Eg the refinery needs lots of power, usually water as well, it needs a technical workforce, it needs the ability to ship things in and out, etc. Plus scale usually means multiple mines supplying a single smelting or refining plant. Hence typically not done at the same location as the mine but that's not a problem as long as it's somewhere in Australia.

 

[sptrawler]

Trouble is we really need to be exporting those for trade balance reasons and simply to attain economies of scale in those industries.

I don't know the current figure, but the zinc works in Tasmania used to export to about 70 countries. That's just one example.

What we really need to be doing in my view is tilting the tax system so as to very firmly favour an arrangement that anything mined in Australia is refined in Australia at least through to the stage of being actual metal.

Doesn't need to be at the same site, and that's often impractical, but so long as it's done somewhere in Australia that's fine - eg mine it in the middle of nowhere and refine it at Kwinana, Whyalla, Bell Bay, Newcastle, Gladstone or wherever but the refinery needs to be somewhere in Australia.

Reason for separate location is simply scale and logistics. Eg the refinery needs lots of power, usually water as well, it needs a technical workforce, it needs the ability to ship things in and out, etc. Plus scale usually means multiple mines supplying a single smelting or refining plant. Hence typically not done at the same location as the mine but that's not a problem as long as it's somewhere in Australia.

Like we did in the 1960's? Back to the future.
BHP formed a subsidiary company, Australian Iron and Steel Pty Ltd, to administer the Kwinana plant. As part of the company's 1960 agreement, a blast furnace was built and first blown in May 1968 using ore from Koolyanobbing, and Australian Iron and Steel began its export of pig iron from one of its two jetties.

• 1960: BHP and the Western Australian government formed the Australian Iron and Steel Pty Ltd (AIS) to develop an integrated steelworks in Kwinana.
  
  
• 1968: AIS's blast furnace, powered by ore from Koolyanobbing, was commissioned in May, marking a major industrial development in the state.
  
  
• 1970: The first stage of the Kwinana project came into operation.
  
  
• 1982: The blast furnace was closed.
  
  
• 1995: The steel rolling mill in Kwinana also closed.

Funnily enough, from memory, the Kwinana blast furnace was the most efficient in the Southern hemisphere, it had the least amount of waste product, when changing pig iron silicon grades.

Hopefully this new one, gets up and running.

Loading...

www.bhp.com

Australia’s two largest iron ore miners and its biggest steelmaker have selected the Kwinana Industrial Area, south of Perth, as the location to develop Australia’s largest ironmaking electric smelting furnace(1) (ESF) pilot plant.

 

[SirRumpole]

Like we did in the 1960's? Back to the future.
BHP formed a subsidiary company, Australian Iron and Steel Pty Ltd, to administer the Kwinana plant. As part of the company's 1960 agreement, a blast furnace was built and first blown in May 1968 using ore from Koolyanobbing, and Australian Iron and Steel began its export of pig iron from one of its two jetties.

• 1960: BHP and the Western Australian government formed the Australian Iron and Steel Pty Ltd (AIS) to develop an integrated steelworks in Kwinana.
  
  
• 1968: AIS's blast furnace, powered by ore from Koolyanobbing, was commissioned in May, marking a major industrial development in the state.
  
  
• 1970: The first stage of the Kwinana project came into operation.
  
  
• 1982: The blast furnace was closed.
  
  
• 1995: The steel rolling mill in Kwinana also closed.

Funnily enough, from memory, the Kwinana blast furnace was the most efficient in the Southern hemisphere, it had the least amount of waste product, when changing pig iron silicon grades.

Hopefully this new one, gets up and running.

Loading...

www.bhp.com

Australia’s two largest iron ore miners and its biggest steelmaker have selected the Kwinana Industrial Area, south of Perth, as the location to develop Australia’s largest ironmaking electric smelting furnace(1) (ESF) pilot plant.

Good to see some cooperation between private companies.

Better than trying to claw each others eyes out with pure capitalism.

 

[sptrawler]

Good to see some cooperation between private companies.

Better than trying to claw each others eyes out with pure capitalism.

Yes and possibly giving something back, rather than the dig and ship for maximum profit and minimum input.

 

[SirRumpole]

Mentioned before, but more on BYD's fast charging blade battery and others.

 

[sptrawler]

Mentioned before, but more on BYD's fast charging blade battery and others.

I would guess, there would be a lot of distribution areas, that would struggle with supplying 1MW chargers.

A couple of 1MW chargers going flat out, is about the same load as a small country town.

 

[qldfrog]

I would guess, there would be a lot of distribution areas, that would struggle with supplying 1MW chargers.

A couple of 1MW chargers going flat out, is about the same load as a small country town.

And this is what the ultimate fundamental problem will be, energy is energy, if you remove oil coal gas energy, same amount needs to be produced distributed...
When a farmer refill his ute and get a diesel delivery to power his farm and equipment, i doubt anyone is ready to upgrade the 100skm power lines to replace with electricity

 

[Smurf1976]

When a farmer refill his ute and get a diesel delivery to power his farm and equipment, i doubt anyone is ready to upgrade the 100skm power lines to replace with electricity

FWIW, present electrification of farms does vary considerably between states.

Agriculture (including fishing and forestry) electricity use by state as a % of the Australian total use of electricity in the agricultural sector:

NSW = 33%
Vic = 29%
Qld = 14%
WA = 8%
SA = 12%
Tas = 4%
NT = 1%

I haven't tried to confirm this but I suspect that's not in line with the share of agricultural production, that some are probably more electrified than others.

 

[qldfrog]

FWIW, present electrification of farms does vary considerably between states.

Agriculture (including fishing and forestry) electricity use by state as a % of the Australian total use of electricity in the agricultural sector:

NSW = 33%
Vic = 29%
Qld = 14%
WA = 8%
SA = 12%
Tas = 4%
NT = 1%

I haven't tried to confirm this but I suspect that's not in line with the share of agricultural production, that some are probably more electrified than others.

Do you agree as well that this is basically just the side consumption of farms: probably pumping mistly, znd side: conveyors etc.
The bulk of the energy use is for the john deers harvesters etc
Tractors are around 15.5 l diesel per hour, timber harvesters 20 to 30l per hours for usually 10 to 12h shift, similar for the dozers etc...
A few irrigation pumps and dairy machinery are not much if we really are serious about a move to electric oil free future.
Even more energy and fertilisers if we are forced into a vegan diet vs roaming cattle and sheep
But who cares, our 90% suburbans climate chango believers have no idea how their woolies food comes from or is produced, nor of the export industry allowing them to buy their green panels, pay their BS jobs wages and allow the debt to grow.
We have few primal needs:
Food and drink, shelter from the elements, physical safety and health.
I have the feeling that our neg zero,its effects on the grid,are endangering each of these.
i hope to be proven wrong in the coming decade.

 

[Smurf1976]

Do you agree as well that this is basically just the side consumption of farms: probably pumping mistly, znd side: conveyors etc.

Yes.

Irrigation pumping is one but even that isn't consistent. Some places the normal way is electricity, others it's a fuel driven pump, others I've seen it done using the PTO from a tractor to drive the pump.

I don't really know the history of it in other states but in Tas farmers have always been encouraged farmers to irrigate with off-peak electricity. In the pre-electronic metering days that was done with simply two rotating disc meters and a mechanical timer. Modern way of doing it's fully electronic.

The other big one is dairy. Refrigeration, milking machines and for reasons I'm unsure of they also use a lot of hot water that's heated to a fairly high temperature (substantially higher than household hot water, I recall it being 82 degrees but don't quote me on that). Again the encouragement was always to heat the water using off-peak electricity and there was a tariff for that purpose which provided supply during the middle of the day as well as overnight which, with the recommended element to storage ratio of 32 Watts per litre, enabled the hot water to be refilled twice daily between milking.

Which raises another important point that utilities used to actively work with industry to come up with mutually acceptable ways of doing things. Means by which to pump or heat water whilst keeping peak demand and cost as low as possible. Everyone wins. That this sort of thing no longer really happens is part of where it's gone wrong.....

Looking at overall farm (including forestry and fishing) energy use in total, you're absolutely right that it mostly isn't electric.

Figures may not add to 100% due to rounding of the source data. All data is 2022-23 from Australian Government statistics - I've just converted it from the raw form to % of total.

National:
Diesel & Petrol = 89.2%
LPG = 1.8%
Natural gas = 1.9%
Electricity = 6.8%

NSW:
Diesel & Petrol = 88.8%
LPG = 1.8%
Natural gas = 1.6%
Electricity = 7.7%

Vic:
Diesel & Petrol = 71.8%
LPG = 1.4%
Natural gas = 10.8%
Electricity = 15.8%

Qld:
Diesel & Petrol = 93.7%
LPG = 1.9%
Natural gas = 0.2%
Electricity = 4.1%

WA:
Diesel & Petrol = 95.4%
LPG = 1.9%
Natural gas = 0.1%
Electricity = 2.4%

SA:
Diesel & Petrol = 87.7%
LPG = 1.7%
Natural gas = 0.5%
Electricity = 9.8%

Tas:
Diesel & Petrol = 90.7%
LPG = 1.8%
Natural gas = 0.3%
Electricity = 7.0%

NT:
Diesel & Petrol = 90.7%
LPG = 1.7%
Natural gas = zero
Electricity = 7.4%

So there's a much higher use of fixed in place energy sources, that is electricity and natural gas, in Victoria compared to other states. What that's for I'm really not sure, but I'm assuming irrigation pumping would at least partly explain it along with dairy.

Getting out of my depth there on the farming side though.