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Abbott's counter terrorism measures

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Knobby22 said:
I hear the whole interview and it was clarified

This is what Turnbull said.

As for what the security agencies want, he says they are seeking the traditional telephone records that are currently kept, in some cases, for more than two years.

"That is the caller, the call party, I called you, time of call, duration of call, those records, they want them to be kept for two years," he said.

He says the agencies also want to keep the number assigned to your phone or your computer when you go online, which is known as an IP address, for two years.

"Some ISPs (internet service providers) keep a record for differing periods, but that is information that is already being kept, and ... it's an essential part of an ISP's business."

So there is no requirement to see who you visit.
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Quite. But even then there are apparently people here who will not believe what Mr Turnbull has said.
There have also been interviews with the people running the intelligence agencies on "The World Today".
I didn't hear all of it but the program will be accessible via the ABC's website. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2014/s4063441.htm
The transcript is not up yet but anyone interested can listen to that part of the program.

Point taken about other organisations who collect data about us do not have the powers of government.
No one has yet, however, given me any reason to feel worried about any part of the government accessing any of my patterns of behaviour. The ATO already knows all my financial information.
I expect if you were suspected of something a warrant could be obtained to look at anything at all about any of us. If I worry about anything it's some hacker accessing my banking and online broker details.

There seems to be 100% focus on invasion of personal privacy (which Mr Turnbull has said isn't going to happen) and none on the advice from intelligence agencies that their job will be made easier if this goes ahead. I suppose that advice will also be dismissed as wrong and unnecessary. I guess we will all see this situation differently. I personally feel a hell of a lot more threatened by jihadist fanatics than I do about any part of the government showing an interest in my oh so unexciting life!

Meantime, I won't disrupt this thread by a diversion but will put up a new thread entitled "The Adult Guardian" as an example of how one's rights can really be seriously trampled on.
 
and none on the advice from intelligence agencies that their job will be made easier if this goes ahead.
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If that is the case, then perhaps the cost of this scheme should be paid out of the existing budgets of the intelligence agencies, rather than putting the load on the ISP's and then us.

In any case, I doubt if their jobs would be made all that much easier, as only a very few people would be caught, while the rest of us are all suspects.
 
Calliope said:
All those Abbott haters who were in fear and trembling that the government would pry into the sordid details of their private lives can rest easy. The mountain that they have been so busily erecting has crumbled into a molehill.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...a-retention-laws/story-fn59niix-1227017608824
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Well, now were up to about the 5th or 6th definition of what's being proposed.

Brandis stated < 48 hours ago that web addresses, technically website IP addresses, would be recorded. Not totally your browsing history but very close to it.

So if people have been up in arms over the issue it's because the Government has turned it into one big confusing issue. I know you've probably found Brandis and Abbott eminently clear on what is being proposed, but the rest of us have found their statements contradicting each other and even themselves each time they've fronted the media to explain /sic what they are proposing.

This is just hte latest example of their though bubble policy on the run.
 
SirRumpole said:
If that is the case, then perhaps the cost of this scheme should be paid out of the existing budgets of the intelligence agencies, rather than putting the load on the ISP's and then us.
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Perhaps it will. If any portion of it filters down to you, it's hardly likely to be much, is it?

In any case, I doubt if their jobs would be made all that much easier, as only a very few people would be caught, while the rest of us are all suspects.
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1. I'll probably take the word of our intelligence agencies over yours when it comes to whether the move will render their job easier. With all due respect to your expertise, of course.

2. We are not all suspects. That's just emotive language.

sydboy007 said:
So if people have been up in arms over the issue it's because the Government has turned it into one big confusing issue.
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Agree that it has been woefully handled. They should have brought Malcolm Turnbull, in conjunction with people like David Irvine, out in the first place.

George Brandis is becoming more of a liability to the government every day imo, along with the equally unrealistic Eric Abetz.
 
McLovin said:
The chief spy says he won't be spying. Now I can rest easy.:rolleyes:
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http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/12/nsa-blackmailing-overseers-washington.html

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009...o-blackmailed-by-the-bush-administration.html

----------------

last month the CIA admitted it spied on the senate committee responsible for overseeing it.

4 months earlier the Director of the CIA claimed that it was not spying on the senate and went further to claim that investigators for the Senate Intelligence Committee had exceeded their lawful access to CIA records and that that constituted spying on the CIA.
 
1. I'll probably take the word of our intelligence agencies over yours when it comes to whether the move will render their job easier. With all due respect to your expertise, of course.
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Really Julia, the crime and intelligence agencies will take any powers they can get whether they need them or not.

The more power they have the more likely those powers will be abused. Look at the police states that existed under the Askin and Bjelke-Petersen governments. They were very close to facism, and those powers were used mainly to silence political opposition to those governments.

I don't trust governments and their agencies enough to believe that those types of situations can't happen again.
 
For anyone who hasnt seen the bumbling of Brandis.
~
 
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Julia said:
1. I'll probably take the word of our intelligence agencies over yours when it comes to whether the move will render their job easier. With all due respect to your expertise, of course.
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I think you are being a bit naive. Government bureaucracies will always want to make their jobs easier and accrue power. A lot of things would make the spy agencies jobs easier doesn't mean we should do them. Also the kinds of people who care about civil liberties generally don't join spy agencies.
 
I'm starting to think that what's happened was a serious case of over reach

Monday night and Tuesday

* Abbot Brandis thought bubble - ISPs to keep a full browsing history for interest access
* Launch it as a response to terrorist threat to get dumping of 18C off the TVs and newspapers.
* Massive back lash against the proposal

Wednesday

* Abbott and Brandis stunned by the lack of Iraqi style welcoming in the streets they had looked forward to.
* Clarifiobuscation by Abbot and Brandis as to will they wont they collect a full browsing history
* Metdata seems to metastasise like a cancer cell.
* Further backlash from the public, growing backlash from Liberal supporter base.
* Brandis funniest home interview

Thursday

* Further clarifobuscation by Abbott and Brandis, sometimes contradicting each other and what they said the previous couple of days
* Growing backlash from all sections of the public
* Right wing think tanks voicing concerns
* Liberal party room is growing very rowdy on the topic
* Emergency party room meeting. Abbot and Brandis acknowledge providing ASIO ASIS AFP wet dream has turned out to be a real vote loser with the public.
* Turnbull puts his hand up with a Baldric style cunning plan. Let's just tell the punters all we want is for ISPs to keep keep a 2 year record for who used what IP address. We'll spin it that this is what we always meant. Yes yes, I hear you say but that's totally different from what Abbott and Brandis have said for 3 days, but Turnbull assures them his gentle demeanour and ability to deny any involvement with the previous policy announcements means he will sound believable.

Call my a cynic, but I think the above is pretty much how it panned out.

Explains why Brandis is in a wheelchair with bullet wounds to both feet and Abbott has lost a big toe.
 
SirRumpole said:
Really Julia, the crime and intelligence agencies will take any powers they can get whether they need them or not.

The more power they have the more likely those powers will be abused. Look at the police states that existed under the Askin and Bjelke-Petersen governments. They were very close to facism, and those powers were used mainly to silence political opposition to those governments.

I don't trust governments and their agencies enough to believe that those types of situations can't happen again.
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Fine with me. Believe what you will. As will I. You seem to be tossing paranoia into the wind with no actual justification. I'd take a bit more notice of you if you put up some real current time examples of how what is being suggested will actually affect you or me personally. No one has actually made this clear.

I repeat that I don't personally feel at any risk of being arrested for plotting against the nation, or anything else for that matter.
banco said:
I think you are being a bit naive.
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Of course you do. You will think negatively about any opinion that doesn't accord with your own. Again, as with Rumpole, fine with me.

Government bureaucracies will always want to make their jobs easier and accrue power. A lot of things would make the spy agencies jobs easier doesn't mean we should do them. Also the kinds of people who care about civil liberties generally don't join spy agencies.
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Again, that's quite OK with me. I'm all for them having all the power they need to protect Australia and am happy to take a chance on their skills in so doing. Nothing you have ever posted here gives me any reason to believe you are any sort of expert in protecting Australia from terrorism, so I'd prefer to take the advice of people who supposedly do have some expertise in the area. Their success in foiling some terrorist plans against Australia so far suggests they have a bit of a clue about what they're doing.

If you would like to outline to me just exactly what you believe I'm at risk of from the government holding data as outlined, you might like to put it up here. I will wait with interest.
 
You seem to be tossing paranoia into the wind with no actual justification. I'd take a bit more notice of you if you put up some real current time examples of how what is being suggested will actually affect you or me personally. No one has actually made this clear.
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It's a bit difficult to provide examples of abuse of a system that has not been implemented yet, but the following details what corrupt police are willing to do with information already existing in supposedly confidential databases:-

Hundreds of police members caught abusing confidential information on operational intelligence database


HUNDREDS of police members have been caught abusing confidential information stored on the operational intelligence database.

Dodgy officers have gained unauthorised access and improperly used sensitive details from the secure LEAP computer system 214 times in the past five years, the Herald Sun can exclusively reveal.

"The unauthorised disclosure of protected law enforcement data is taken very seriously by Victoria Police - this action that can cause significant risks to police and the community, undermine serious investigations and diminish the confidence that the community has in Victoria Police," said Assistant Commissioner Emmett Dunne, of Professional Standards Command.

The alarming news comes two days after Victoria Police announced that raids on three properties - one directly linked to a high-profile outlaw bikie gang - had uncovered hundreds of pages from the LEAP network.

Chief Commissioner Ken Lay said the major information link was "one of the gravest breaches of police security" he had seen in his 39-year career.

The Herald Sun can reveal 196 officers, including a superintendent, have been caught misusing the main police database.
Chief Commissioner Ken Lay , Assistant Commissioner Steve Fontana

Victorian Police Chief Commissioner Ken Lay and Assistant Commissioner Steve Fontana detailing their concerns about a police information leak. Picture: Tim Carrafa

A further 15 members of staff at Victoria Police have also illegally abused the network for their own gain.

Three senior sergeants were guilty of improper use and unauthorised access to the database twice each.

The force is investigating officers with links to outlaw motorcycle gangs, as part of Taskforce Eagle launched in March. Detectives within the taskforce spearheaded raids three weeks ago, which uncovered top-secret police information, including the names of police informants.

Police believe a junior officer is at the centre of the scandal and will be charged.

Taskforce Keel was set up this week to ascertain if the unnamed officer, who has been suspended without pay, had bikie links before joining the force.
Chief Commissioner Ken Lay , Assistant Commissioner Steve Fontana

Victorian Police Chief Commissioner Ken Lay - pictured with Assistant Commissioner Steve Fontana - described the release of crucial police information as "horrible" and "damaging". Picture: Tim Carrafa

Assistant Commissioner Dunne said that LEAP database breaches would not be tolerated. "This kind of action is not tolerated and members (could be) dismissed," he said.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...637132957?nk=06734cd05054036d41a7855643422df3
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I would also note that the adult guardian case you quoted does not affect you or me personally, yet you are upset by it, justifiably. If we have to wait until we are personally affected by something that the government does, then it's too late. They have the power and it's been used against us.
 
Perhaps we should take a lot more notice of retired General Peter Leahy with what we may face in the not so distant future.

With the influx of Muslims between 2008 and 2013, thanks to the Green/Labor left wing socialist Fabians, we now have ghettos in Western Sydney growing at an alarming rate particularly in Tony Burke's seat of Watson where 20% of the population in that electorate are Muslims.....Burke will protect these Muslims down to the last and the reason why he does not not want to agree to Abbotts counter terrorism measures is the for fear of losing votes.

Well Mr Burke, wake up to yourself before it comes back to bite you on the bum.

We need to take action now before these radicals grow in numbers.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...head-peter-leahy/story-e6frg8yo-1227018630297

AUSTRALIA needs to prepare for an increasingly savage, 100-year war against radical Islam that will be fought on home soil as well as foreign lands, the former head of the army, Peter Leahy, has warned.

Professor Leahy, a leading defence and strategic analyst, told The Weekend Australian the country was ill-prepared for the high cost of fighting a war that would be paid in “blood and treasure” and would require pre-emptive as well as reactive action.

“Australia is involved in the early stages of a war which is likely to last for the rest of the century,” he said. “We must be ready to protect ourselves and, where necessary, act pre-emptively to neutralise the evident threat. Get ready for a long war.”

Senior intelligence officials have moved to shore up public support for the Abbott government’s tough new security laws, including enhanced data-retention capabilities enabling agencies to track suspect computer usage.

Australian Security Intelligence Organisation director-general David Irvine said the proposed data laws, which require phone and internet companies to retain records for two years, were “absolutely crucial” to counter the jihadist terror threat.
 
And here is more evidence of what we are about to face with these Muslim radicals.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...dads-love-failed/story-fn59niix-1227018613923

MAMDOUH Elomar is a man whose “heart has been shattered into a thousand pieces”. The successful Sydney businessman has spent years trying to steer his sons, Mohamed, 30, and Ahmed, 31, away from radical Islam.

He failed.

Ahmed is in jail, having belted a police officer over the head with a pole at a protest in 2012, while *Mohamed is in Syria fighting for the Islamic State. He has been in photographs holding the severed heads of captured Syrian soldiers, taken by his friend Khaled Sharrouf — both are now wanted terrorists and war criminals.

Can the Australian Federal Police succeed where the love of a father has failed?

In the coming months, the AFP is planning to assemble a new unit to manage the threat posed by *returning foreign fighters.
 
noco said:
With the influx of Muslims between 2008 and 2013, thanks to the Green/Labor left wing socialist Fabians, we now have ghettos in Western Sydney growing at an alarming rate particularly in Tony Burke's seat of Watson where 20% of the population in that electorate are Muslims.....Burke will protect these Muslims down to the last and the reason why he does not not want to agree to Abbotts counter terrorism measures is the for fear of losing votes.
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Considering the high levels of immigration under how - he has said he was a high immigration PM - I'd find it hard to believe that there's much of a spike in immigrants of the Islamic religion.

If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be quite interested to see it.

For 2012-13 the top 9 countries for migrants were.

Considering malaysia is the only Isalmic dominated country, seems we're not being flooded. I'd also note I meet a lot of Malays in their own country and here and I'd say theat most of them would make a welcome addition to Australia.

Country of birth Arrivals % Variation
New Zealand 27 015 -10.3
India 18 395 27.8
China 18 041 3.3
United Kingdom 11 720 -29.8
Philippines 6704 -3.6
South Africa 4585 -27.3
Malaysia 3762 -3.2
Vietnam 3709 -4.8
Sri Lanka 3670 -15.6
 
Syd's list obviously excludes illegals.:rolleyes:

THE arrival of more than 40,000 boat people in Australia's north since Labor unwound John Howard's border protection policies in late 2008 represents an alarming threat to Australia's security as well as its social cohesion.

This boat people phenomenon is essentially a determined Muslim immigration, being part of the stealth jihad, with the vast majority of arrivals being from Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan.
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http://australian-news.net/articles/view.php?id=130

Boat-people-3-my-full-scan-e1382380225860.jpg
 
This boat people phenomenon is essentially a determined Muslim immigration, being part of the stealth jihad, with the vast majority of arrivals being from Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan.
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While some jihadists may arrive by boat, I think the majority probably just come on family reunion visas or other legal migration programs, and that is where we need to focus our attention.

People coming here legally from Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, Lebanon, Syria, Somalia are the main threat imo because it's relatively easy to get here due to the lax mainstream migration programs which the current government shows no signs of toughening up.

I think that if I lived under the thumb of the Taliban in Afghanistan, I would want to get out ASAP, and I think that is what drives most boat refugees.
 
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