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Abbott's counter terrorism measures

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Tony speaks of Team Australia but he doesn't speak like a Captain asking for each player to do his or her part
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What do you think he should be asking of us, Craton? How do you believe we should all be 'doing our part'?

What would be your preferred way for Mr Abbott to speak to the nation?

Personally I'm just not sure about any aspect of this current situation. I sure as hell wouldn't like to be making the decisions that the government, the intelligence agencies, and the police have to make, especially in such an environment of criticism whatever they do.

If they propose measures that they believe will be conducive to greater safety for the greater number, they upset people who feel their freedom is inhibited. If they don't employ whatever methods are requested by ASIO et al, then they will be accused of failing to properly try to keep Australians safe.

If they agree to Australia participating with the US and other countries in attempting to counteract ISIS, some parts of the population will condemn that, assuring us that we have nothing to fear here. Good luck with that.

If they were to refuse to support the US etc, other parts of the population will rage that we are not doing out bit.

And so on. I don't know who is right or wrong. But I do think being in government, whatever party it might be, at such a time, is tough.
 
And so on. I don't know who is right or wrong. But I do think being in government, whatever party it might be, at such a time, is tough.
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Definitely right.

It's the same when the US did not get involved in Syria, according to some sections of the community, the US didn't care when Muslims were massacred, but as soon as they try and intervene in Iraq they are capitalist imperialists.

You can never please some people.
 
Julia said:
Personally I'm just not sure about any aspect of this current situation. I sure as hell wouldn't like to be making the decisions that the government, the intelligence agencies, and the police have to make, especially in such an environment of criticism whatever they do.

If they propose measures that they believe will be conducive to greater safety for the greater number, they upset people who feel their freedom is inhibited. If they don't employ whatever methods are requested by ASIO et al, then they will be accused of failing to properly try to keep Australians safe.

If they agree to Australia participating with the US and other countries in attempting to counteract ISIS, some parts of the population will condemn that, assuring us that we have nothing to fear here. Good luck with that.

If they were to refuse to support the US etc, other parts of the population will rage that we are not doing out bit.

And so on. I don't know who is right or wrong. But I do think being in government, whatever party it might be, at such a time, is tough.
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Well said Julia, I know we disagree on the measures the government is taking in regards to solving this problem (data retention) but I full agree that no matter what you're going to upset some and please others on these matters. Same with our military commitment, some will think we should for varying reasons and others will think we shouldn't. No doubt in years to come we will have the hindsight to look back and discuss the merits of the decisions. If WMD's were found in Iraq then that war would have been viewed very differently.
 
Julia said:
What do you think he should be asking of us, Craton? How do you believe we should all be 'doing our part'?

What would be your preferred way for Mr Abbott to speak to the nation?

Personally I'm just not sure about any aspect of this current situation. I sure as hell wouldn't like to be making the decisions that the government, the intelligence agencies, and the police have to make, especially in such an environment of criticism whatever they do.

If they propose measures that they believe will be conducive to greater safety for the greater number, they upset people who feel their freedom is inhibited. If they don't employ whatever methods are requested by ASIO et al, then they will be accused of failing to properly try to keep Australians safe.

If they agree to Australia participating with the US and other countries in attempting to counteract ISIS, some parts of the population will condemn that, assuring us that we have nothing to fear here. Good luck with that.

If they were to refuse to support the US etc, other parts of the population will rage that we are not doing out bit.

And so on. I don't know who is right or wrong. But I do think being in government, whatever party it might be, at such a time, is tough.
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+1....they are in a catch 22 situation.....damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I am sure the road they have taken will be approved by the majority of Australians.
 
Julia said:
What do you think he should be asking of us, Craton? How do you believe we should all be 'doing our part'?

What would be your preferred way for Mr Abbott to speak to the nation?
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Not in the heavy handed way his is doing that's for sure. I would want him to be extra inclusive of all and asking for our help in keeping a level head and not whipping us into a frenzy such that we give no resistance to any new rules/laws.
On the one hand the govt. raised the alert level then on the other says to go about your daily life without concern. Seems at odds doesn't it?

Personally I'm just not sure about any aspect of this current situation.
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Yep and you're not the only one. If we had a Bali style bombing here or if there was a clear threat from ISIL to the Aussie people the situation would be clearer. I sure would like to see some transpiracy not conspiracy from our authorities. Allowing them to enact laws on heresay smacks of the WMD saga.

I sure as hell wouldn't like to be making the decisions that the government, the intelligence agencies, and the police have to make, especially in such an environment of criticism whatever they do.

If they propose measures that they believe will be conducive to greater safety for the greater number, they upset people who feel their freedom is inhibited. If they don't employ whatever methods are requested by ASIO et al, then they will be accused of failing to properly try to keep Australians safe.
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We have been adequately protected to date. If the govt/sec agencies have real concerns, then they are not sharing that info and are treating us like dummies. This I certainly balk at.

If they agree to Australia participating with the US and other countries in attempting to counteract ISIS, some parts of the population will condemn that, assuring us that we have nothing to fear here. Good luck with that.

If they were to refuse to support the US etc, other parts of the population will rage that we are not doing out bit.

And so on. I don't know who is right or wrong. But I do think being in government, whatever party it might be, at such a time, is tough.
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Why is Abbott trying to rush through the new legislation?
We are not at war, yet.

Too right, it is a very tricky, sticky situation especially as we are branded as a Deputy Sheriff of the US of A but I don't like seeing us riding shot gun when there are other avenues to pursue. A new coalition of the willing if you like or better still, support from the Middle East states at the very least. Abbott's New York meeting will shed more light on this no doubt.

FWIW, I don't think the terrorism threat is any more than the intervening years since 9/11, it's always been high IMO. If we think we are isolated from world events because of our remote, island country, we are delusional. Sure our location has insulated us for a time but any realist would know that it was only a matter of time before any unlawful group would make inroads in our fair land.

Russian mafia, Asian Triads, OMC gangs and the like to name a few all have a foot hold here. One doesn't have to be blind Freddy to work out what all the refugee boats were being sent here were for. Anyhow, I agree that whatever the govt. does will not appease all, but to blindly follow and allow further erosion of our so called rights just doesn't wash with me.
 
Craton said:
Not in the heavy handed way his is doing that's for sure. I would want him to be extra inclusive of all and asking for our help in keeping a level head and not whipping us into a frenzy such that we give no resistance to any new rules/laws.
On the one hand the govt. raised the alert level then on the other says to go about your daily life without concern. Seems at odds doesn't it?
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No. Not to me. Seems to me it's a very delicate line for the government to tread between providing adequate warning to the population about what clearly is an increased threat and not inspiring panic.
So far I think they've done a reasonable job on this, not always helped by media whose only aim is increased sales.

If you don't believe there is any increased thread to us recently, I'd suggest you just haven't been paying attention to global events, let alone yesterday's attack on police officers.

If we had a Bali style bombing here or if there was a clear threat from ISIL to the Aussie people the situation would be clearer.
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Australia has been specifically named by ISIS as target. Maybe check up on some of what is documented in terms of clear threats.

I sure would like to see some transpiracy not conspiracy from our authorities. Allowing them to enact laws on heresay smacks of the WMD saga.
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Hearsay? Intercepted telephone calls. Real voices.

There is general agreement that the current situation bears little relationship to the WMD stuff.

We have been adequately protected to date. If the govt/sec agencies have real concerns, then they are not sharing that info and are treating us like dummies. This I certainly balk at.
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that's your perception. Mine is different. I've found the fine line between 'need to know' and 'openness' has been reasonably well handled. We don't know what we don't know. Some level of trust is required.
If you're not prepared to engage that, then that's up to you.

You say, 'we're not at war yet'. Perhaps not. Some would differ on that. You would seem to recommend that no preparation be made for anything to get worse. I would disagree.


Too right, it is a very tricky, sticky situation especially as we are branded as a Deputy Sheriff of the US of A
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That is an outmoded expression which I've not heard for more than a decade. It's not appropriate in the present context. There is general agreement throughout much of the world that ISIS is something to be dealt with.
Many ME muslim countries are in accord with this. No resemblance to the WMD thing.

A new coalition of the willing if you like or better still, support from the Middle East states at the very least. Abbott's New York meeting will shed more light on this no doubt.
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Several ME countries have already participated in air power, I think five so far. Look it up. It has been clearly covered on ABC radio all networks.
 
Julia said:
What do you think he should be asking of us, Craton? How do you believe we should all be 'doing our part'?

What would be your preferred way for Mr Abbott to speak to the nation?

Personally I'm just not sure about any aspect of this current situation. I sure as hell wouldn't like to be making the decisions that the government, the intelligence agencies, and the police have to make, especially in such an environment of criticism whatever they do.

If they propose measures that they believe will be conducive to greater safety for the greater number, they upset people who feel their freedom is inhibited. If they don't employ whatever methods are requested by ASIO et al, then they will be accused of failing to properly try to keep Australians safe.

If they agree to Australia participating with the US and other countries in attempting to counteract ISIS, some parts of the population will condemn that, assuring us that we have nothing to fear here. Good luck with that.

If they were to refuse to support the US etc, other parts of the population will rage that we are not doing out bit.

And so on. I don't know who is right or wrong. But I do think being in government, whatever party it might be, at such a time, is tough.
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In such time, it's actually easier for the gov't to do whatever it is they want.

It gets tough later if the war drags on too long, if ("too many")of our soldiers are harmed, when the economy goes bad because of lower domestic spending, less tourism... That's when gov't change hand.
 
Julia said:
Several ME countries have already participated in air power, I think five so far. Look it up. It has been clearly covered on ABC radio all networks.
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I will admit I've not had my ear glued to the radio, stuck in the papers nor eyeballs pressed to the T.V. due to work, family and life in general so will be the first to admit I'm not up-to-the-minute.

I do listen to the ABC radio and watch ABC T.V. when I can and try to keep informed. In fact, on the way home tonight (ha, last night now) I heard about the attack on the naval ADF officer. Regarding ME countries assisting, not enough info has filtered through to me so yes, call me ignorant. I could rave on about good, let them handle the ISIS threat and we'll take care of our own backyard but will desist from going there, oops too late. :D

Look, I'm not against the govt. and its agencies doing their jobs, I'm simply against giving them more power than they need. It seems to me from their effort to date that they have more than enough weaponry to keep us safe. I'd also add that no amount of extra power/legislation will stop a determined fanatical extremist mob from acting against us.

Julia, you may be happy to allow the govt. to have its way, I'm not and certainly not without a shadow of a doubt that any new measures are duly warranted.
 
I believe with the 600 Federal police raid made a few days ago and the demonstration that followed later by some 200 Islamic sympathizers, it has perhaps brought them out of the wood work sooner than they wanted to.....No doubt the Feds would have their identities on camera and on record for future use.... It may have been smarter for those demonstrators to have remained out of the picture.

We have some pretty smart cookies in our intelligence operation and this recent episode may well have worked in the Feds favor.

There will continue to be the odd brain washed radical who will endeavor to make himself a martyr......and there will also be some hot head Australians who will try to intimidate Muslims who frequent their haunt.....I certainly do not blame them for protesting against the location of new mosques in light of the fact that Muslims like to have their loud speakers wailing out at 6 am in the morning....I am sure it will continue for some years to come.

Strange as it may seem but I do recall feuds between Protestants and Catholics in Brisbane where I once lived as a kid (late 1930's and early 1940's).....there was so much hatred in those days which brought about many a skirmish between the two groups.......shanghai fights and punch ups were the order order of the day....I had vivid memories of one of our Protestant gang being hit on the ankle with a rock from a shanghai...it severed an artery and claret squirted out like a bloody fountain....fortunately my aunty who was a nurse and lived next door administered first aid and he lived to fight another fight.
 
Craton said:
I will admit I've not had my ear glued to the radio, stuck in the papers nor eyeballs pressed to the T.V. due to work, family and life in general so will be the first to admit I'm not up-to-the-minute.

I do listen to the ABC radio and watch ABC T.V. when I can and try to keep informed.
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It is not surprising then, that you are so badly informed on security issues. You should try harder.
 
Calliope said:
It is not surprising then, that you are so badly informed on security issues. You should try harder.
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Yeah, thanks for that. Try harder, you funny.

As if I've got oodles of spare time to keep abreast with the latest developments so as to compete with you learned lot. Living in a remote/regional area I do subscribe to the local fish wrapper and its only today I read in it of the Arab states assisting the US of A and more news of the UN meeting.
Delayed? Sure.
Badly informed? Doubt it.

overhang said:
Yes Craton definitely needs to read some Murdoch press to really get that team Australia vibe http://imgur.com/2TglCpg
Or perhaps Fairfax who put the picture of the wrong bloke as the accused terrorist who stabbed the police across most their tabloids.
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Wrong photo! Heard about that and what a shocker thing to do. Journalism fact checking at its best, NOT.

Anyways thanks to all for posting in this thread. Great to see the opposing views and as ever, will keep an open mind to all that is fed to me by our govt. Wont mean I'll accept everything point blank though.
 
overhang said:
Yes Craton definitely needs to read some Murdoch press to really get that team Australia vibe
Or perhaps Faironly exposure to news Craton's fax who put the picture of the wrong bloke as the accused terrorist who stabbed the police across most their tabloids.
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I'm pleased you agree with me. To be well informed you need to study both side sides of an issue. Not just the side that suits your political leanings.. Apparenly Craton's only exposure to newspapers comes from fish wrappers;

My local fish wrapper retlyported today that the Abbott govt. wants to introduce new counter terrorism measures which proposes to force internet providers to keep metadata of all our online and phone usage for up to two yrs.
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Calliope said:
I'm pleased you agree with me. To be well informed you need to study both side sides of an issue. Not just the side that suits your political leanings.
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Well I was more commenting on the poor journalism that we currently see in mainstream press but yes I do agree with you that it's important to study both sides of the press regardless of political leaning. In this day and age it's easier than ever to do, you don't need to go out and buy 3 newspapers but can view each paper individually over the Net.
 
Calliope said:
I'm pleased you agree with me. To be well informed you need to study both side sides of an issue. Not just the side that suits your political leanings.. Apparenly Craton's only exposure to newspapers comes from fish wrappers;
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See, you are funny...:xyxthumbs

Calliope, I'd counter by saying that to be well informed one would need to be in the thick of things. I'm not and rely on the reporting via our media.

I understand the govt. point of view. I don't agree with it and FWIW, I've no affiliation with any political party nor do I lean one way or the other.
 
Craton said:
See, you are funny...:xyxthumbs

Calliope, I'd counter by saying that to be well informed one would need to be in the thick of things. I'm not and rely on the reporting via our media.

I understand the govt. point of view. I don't agree with it and FWIW, I've no affiliation with any political party nor do I lean one way or the other.
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You will have to excuse Calliope, he's been away for a while

:D
 
Oh my!

Police investigating a claim that an Australian navy officer was assaulted by two men who threatened to cut his throat in Sydney’s north-west yesterday morning have announced the allegations have been dropped.
 
The Abbot's government data laws sucks big time. It the people who suffer whether it is stopping piracy or counter terrorism it the people who suffer from these laws of data retention laws. The people of Australia demand internet freedom and that all. The act of invading privacy is awful.

I have been concerned with the issue and luckily I found VPN that solves all the problem. Whether it protecting piracy or accessing the content. Currently this vpn is offering a two exclusive plan they are offering huge discount do check it out.
 
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