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Abbott's counter terrorism measures

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Craton

Craton

Mostly passive, contrarian.
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My local fish wrapper reported today that the Abbott govt. wants to introduce new counter terrorism measures which proposes to force internet providers to keep metadata of all our online and phone usage for up to two yrs.

A quick Google Fu:
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...fight-homegrown-terrorism-20140805-3d65m.html

http://australianpolitics.com/2014/08/05/counter-terrorism-measures.html

No doubt someone has to fund the cost of building the much needed data centres to store all this data. I guess user (you and me) pays again. Apart from privacy issues, I'm not too sure that this will work as Big Brother plans as I've heard that terrorists and criminals are skilled in the use of carrier pigeon, encrypted networks (VPN) and other nefarious means of communication. Why, even old Aussie Post may get a boost in snail mail usage :cautious:

The one's targeted as always will seek and fund ways to circumvent any measure to detect, disrupt and detain. So, can I ask what the Collective thoughts are on this proposed measure?
 
Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures

Craton said:
... So, can I ask what the Collective thoughts are on this proposed measure?
Click to expand...

I propose that we confuse and confound them all by starting an online talk-back radio station.
 
Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures

Craton said:
The one's targeted as always will seek and fund ways to circumvent any measure to detect, disrupt and detain. So, can I ask what the Collective thoughts are on this proposed measure?
Click to expand...

The proposed data retention measures assumes everyone using the internet in this country is a criminal or terrorist.

That is plainly absurd, and so are the proposed measures. Putting a financial load on the ISP's and then on us, in a broad sweeping but horrendously expensive and inefficient manner is not the best way to tackle the problem of either terrorism or crime.

Well placed intelligence networks that target the people most likely to be 'persons of interest' is much more likely to be effective. The terrorist plots discovered in this country have been reported by people close to the perpetrators.

I suggest a campaign to encourage those in the know or to have informed suspicions to report these to the investigators. This is a far more effective way to handle the situation than using a great big sledgehammer to crack a tiny nut.
 
Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures

$40 a year allows between 3 and 5 devices per account to avoid this proposed legislation. A quick anonymous vpn google search will provide plenty of providers with servers located all around the world that do not log and have no ability to link web site access back to the user. I've been using such a service for a few years now. partly over privacy concerns, and partly so I can have safe internet access when on holiday. Anyone using free wifi without a VPN is just asking for trouble IMHO.

SGP Technologies BLACKPHONE allows fully encrypted phone calls end to end. So unless they've physically bugged ya phone it's safe from eavesdropping.

All it will do is what has occurred in the USA and let law enforcement agencies - and what we define as law enforcement in this country is not just the police - without warrants to trawl through people's personal lives for little to no benefit to society.

Then we'll have the cost of getting all the letters out of the envelopes so now personal data is stored with the meta data - may not be totally automated. The massive honeypots of data will be so alluring to hackers. If someone does have incriminating evidence stored, is a verifiable hack of the data enough reasonable doubt to make the data inadmissible as evidence? How does one confirm the integrity of the data? Considering how the movie studios got their law suits muddle up so many times you'd have to figure the same sort of mistakes are going to happen when you have hundreds to thousands of times more data.

Considering how members of the Government behaved when previously with Muhammed Haneef, am I right to fear a frack up will be hidden or covered up until a person's life has been destroyed?

I'd also like to add that ISPs are currently NOT storing this kind of data. The Government is being outright deceitful on this. The amount of extra information they want to be stored is quite considerable. Every IP connection that every internet enabled device creates will have to be logged. An average user would rack up at least a few hundred a day. Gammers probably a lot more, and those using skype or whatsapping friends would potentially rack up thousands. Yes, every time you send / receive a whatsapp message there's a data point to be stored. Every time you skype, use line for a call. Every time you do a google search it's supposed to be stored. Pretty much every time you use an app on a phone it will generate multiple data stores. Apps running background process will create data stores. Every push email , automated weather, FB update will add to it.

Basically the Govt is planning to generate Everest sized haystacks in the hopes of recording the odd needle location!
 
Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures

I heard Abbott say this morning on the ABC that the metadata is retained anyway so it's no big deal.

Is he misinformed or is it us who are been given incorrect information? I believe he may be correct as the ISPs need to be able to trace it there is an argument over a bill.
 
Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures

Thanks for the replies. Similar thoughts as my own although burglar's idea
I propose that we confuse and confound them all by starting an online talk-back radio station.
Click to expand...
hadn't crossed my mind. Perhaps we could speak in tongues. ;)

Knobby22 said:
I heard Abbott say this morning on the ABC that the metadata is retained anyway so it's no big deal.

Is he misinformed or is it us who are been given incorrect information? I believe he may be correct as the ISPs need to be able to trace it there is an argument over a bill.
Click to expand...

As per:

sydboy007 said:
I'd also like to add that ISPs are currently NOT storing this kind of data.
Click to expand...

ISP's and Telco's do keep logs but not metadata AFAIK unless court ordered to do so.
Dec 2013 and Telstra logging: http://delimiter.com.au/2013/12/10/telstra-logging-customers-web-email-history/

“Telstra does not routinely collect or store our customers’ telecommunications data to undertake mass surveillance on behalf of Australian national security agencies. Intrinsic to providing telecommunications services is generating data, for example the time, location and duration of telephone calls. We generate this data as part of providing a service to our customers and we store it for as long as it makes sense commercially and legally to do so. For instance, we are required to hold billing data for up to six years to meet out obligations under the Telecommunications Consumer Protection Code.”
Click to expand...

Interesting stats from a Mar 2014 opt in USA survey on phone metadata and its content:

http://webpolicy.org/2014/03/12/metaphone-the-sensitivity-of-telephone-metadata/

At the outset of this study, we shared the same hypothesis as our computer science colleagues””we thought phone metadata could be very sensitive. We did not anticipate finding much evidence one way or the other, however, since the MetaPhone participant population is small and participants only provide a few months of phone activity on average.

We were wrong. We found that phone metadata is unambiguously sensitive, even in a small population and over a short time window. We were able to infer medical conditions, firearm ownership, and more, using solely phone metadata
Click to expand...

So it is very easy to profile and hence, use this information.

Personally, I am very opposed to this proposed measure and have emailed my local MP to convey my concerns and vehement opposition to this draconian measure. I've no issue with "persons of interest" being targeted but to brand all Australians with the same brush is immoral, unethical and un-Australian.

So too with privacy. No amount of govt. guarantee will allay my fears that the data will be safe and secure from misuse, abuse, profiling, hacking and so much more.

Ah Tony, just when I was starting to take a shine to you. Like the Section 18c amendment being quashed, this hair brained Big Brother idea must meet the same inevitable fate.
 
Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures

Knobby22 said:
I heard Abbott say this morning on the ABC that the metadata is retained anyway so it's no big deal.

Is he misinformed or is it us who are been given incorrect information? I believe he may be correct as the ISPs need to be able to trace it there is an argument over a bill.
Click to expand...

ISPs do collect some form of metadata to help with billing, but a smaller set than what the Govt is proposing to collect. They do not STORE it for 2 years. That is where the cost is going to explode.

basically the Govt is doing the half truth to make what they sound believable, but they're really just trying to dupe the public into supporting this.
 
Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures

The party of small government strikes again.:rolleyes:

Now we wait for the usual "but if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about" cheer squad.
On Wednesday morning, Prime Minister Tony Abbott appeared to indicate the web browser history of Australian internet users could be included in the definition of metadata that telcos would then store for two years.

‘’It’s not what you’re doing on the internet, it’s the sites you’re visiting, it’s not the content, it’s the sites [where] you’ve been,’
Click to expand...

Which makes me think Tony Abbott doesn't know how the interwebs works. Oh do explain Dear Leader how knowing what sites a person is visiting on the internet isn't knowing what they're doing on the internet?
 
Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures

Further to the thought bubble process that the Government has been going through.

I missed the announcement that the Govt wants to force people to handover their encryption keys for VPN services. That's definitely a step loser to the surveillance state.

I've only pasted a few relevant paragraphs but he entire article is worth a read if you want to get a better understanding of what the Government is REALLY proposing to do.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/06/australias_metadata_debate_is_an_utter_shambles/

Within a single day of the prime minister, Tony Abbott, taking to the microphone with attorney-general George Brandis and foreign minister Julie Bishop to announce the plan as a raft of counter-terrorism measures, the PM has:

  • Broadened the justification for metadata retention from preventing terrorism to crime-fighting “in general”;
  • Stated that the new laws are needed because carriers already store the data the government wants;
  • Asserted that metadata retention will involve no cost to carriers because they already collect the data the government wants; and
  • Broadened the scope of the data collection to Web browsing history, while simultaneously trotting out the national security establishment's falsehood that metadata collection is no more than “reading what's on the envelope”.

In a single day, the prime minister has put himself at odds with statements made by the national security establishment – most usually from the director-general of ASIO, David Irvine – to parliamentary committees examining data retention, security laws, and telecommunications interception laws.

On the need for new laws, Irvine is on the record as saying new data needs to be retained, because the Internet is different from the telephone network, where call data records are required for billing purposes.

ISPs currently don't keep per-communication metadata records for Web access, for Skype calls, for Tor connections, for e-mails and all the rest. Australia's national security and law enforcement agencies all want that data collected.

The PM, however, believes it already is collected, telling the ABC's Michael Brissenden that “the metadata we're talking about is information that is already kept”.

“All we want is for the telecommunications companies to continue to keep the person sending the information, the person to whom the information is being sent, the time it was sent, and the place it was sent from,” he said to Brissenden on the national radio programme AM.

The “envelope” metaphor is pervasive. The Register notes that it was used by Irvine as recently as July, and was used yesterday by Alistair MacGibbon of the Centre for Internet Safety (a kind of spook think-tank at the ANU) on Sydney's ABC 702 Drive show in conversation with presenter Richard Glover yesterday (August 5).

The “envelope” metaphor is a dangerous falsehood – and it's one that tripped up the PM in conversation with Channel Nine television, when he decided to expand on it.

“It's not the content of the letter, it's what's on the envelope … it's not what you're doing on the Internet, it's the sites you're visiting. It's not the content, it's just where you've been, so to speak.”

Once again, the prime minister seems to have contradicted Irvine, who in July said Web browser history is out-of-scope for metadata retention, saying “The principle is that web surfing … or, indeed, Googling 'Al-Qaeda atrocities' … is not picked up by us, not regarded by us as metadata”.

Then there's the question of why: yesterday's focus on terrorism has been expanded by the prime minister to include general crime-fighting. Quoting again from his interview with Michael Brissenden: “all of the expert advice from our counter-terrorist agencies is that this is absolutely critical, not just in the fight against terrorism, but in crime-fighting more generally.”

The Register would argue that political confusion about the entire debate – what is metadata, what will be kept, and what the agencies want – is dangerous. It greatly increases the likelihood that the government will be given a legislative agenda by the Australian Security and Intelligence Organisation (ASIO), The Australian Secret Intelligence Service (ASIS), the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD) and the Australian Federal Police (AFP), and will enact that legislation without grasping its import until later.

What of crypto?
Keep in mind that in the rush to debate yesterday's announcement, nobody seems to have considered the interaction between metadata retention and the Department of the Attorney General's desire to enact laws to force Australians to hand over encryption keys.

That emerged back in March – sufficiently long ago to have slipped everyone's attention.

At least one thing that's indisputably “metadata” would be the fact that someone's contacted a site offering VPN services, or that their e-mail negotiated a crypto session, or even that a corporate router began its connection to a service provider or another corporate router by negotiating encryption.
 
Re: Abbotts counter terrorism measures

SirRumpole said:
Hopefully Labor and the Greens will save us from the government's silliness again, although Labor previously tried to put similar legislation through, but canned it after objections from senior Liberals

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...new-internet-tax/story-fn59niix-1227013916569

Funny how the worm turns isn't it ?
Click to expand...

i want to know how a Government so intent on removing section 18C can turn around and try to force this on the population.

At least get your facts straight. Come up with a single definition of what they believe metadata is, why you're proposing to do this, and how you plan to implement it.

I don't think even labor were as inept in a single day talking about a single policy proposal as the Libs have been.

Am i the only one getting the feeling they're trying to annoy as many people as possible with irrelevant policy when the economic fires are smouldering and threatening to fully flame up once the mining CAPEX cliff is reached sometime in the next 12-18 months. If Abbott is not careful people are likely to start tuning out.

Surely when they're telling us there's a budget emergency that these side shows can be put to the side till the main game - getting the economy going and jobs growth back to above the population growth rate - is sorted out.

Should we start a poll on what what we think the next though bubble policy release will be??
 
I'm opposed to it on the basis that it's giving up privacy for not much. However I don't really buy the "smart terrorists will get around it easily line". There seem to be a lot of dumb wanna be terrorists out there. The recent trials in Australia featured a lot of phone tap evidence. If a wanna be terrorist had half a brain they'd know to assume their phone is tapped.

Funny to watch Abbott and co fumble around and screw up every time they try to explain the policy. It seems like Abbott has never turned on a computer. They need to roll out Turnbull.
 
The man who fought for the right to be a biggot.

His performance on fox news was dismal. He seriously has no idea about what he's actually proposing. He sounded so like Sir Joh at times - "It's it's it's it's..."

He seemed to be arguing that the web site you visit isn't recorded, just the "web address" He probably means the IP address, but then all that means is you have a number instead of url stored, but if you put that number into a web browser it will tell you the site, so I'm not really sure why he was trying to make out there's a difference between the two.

I have to admit I was quite surprised the fox reported really pinned him down on the issue.

[video=youtube_share;8N4vAdS4xT4]http://youtu.be/8N4vAdS4xT4[/video]
 
for anyone using windows you too can play a mini version of surveillance state.

All you need to do is open a windows command prompt - older system called it the DOS prompt.

Easiest way to bring it up is to click start and type cmd in the search bar

once the command prompt is up type netstat -a

then enter

this will show you every active connection on your PC.

You can ignore any foreign addresses that starts with a 10 or 192.168 as these will be local connections not seen by the Govt.

If you want to see the foreign address converted to a web page then just type netstat -a -f

After being surprised how chatty your PC can be, just imagine trying to store all that info for every internet user in the country for 2 years.

The below is just from having 3 web pages currently open and probably some leftover connections from other pages I've closed down.

Most of it is due to advertising on the pages creating lots of links to download the adds from various sources. Difficult to weed out all that useless info so it's likely all going to have to be stored.

TCP 192.168.1.4:49272 a184-85-80-38.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.c
om:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:58544 tf-in-f125.1e100.net:5222 ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:58606 tb-in-f188.1e100.net:5228 ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:59244 syd01s19-in-f22.1e100.net:https ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:60469 ec2-54-206-79-128.ap-southeast-2.compute.amazona
ws.com:https ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:61184 a125-56.204-122.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:ht
tp ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:61424 a125-56.204-122.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:ht
tp ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:61474 144.135.8.230:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:61728 a23-46-52-211.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.c
om:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:61751 a125-56.204-114.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:ht
tp ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:61752 a125-56.204-114.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:ht
tp TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:61779 a125-56.204-208.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:ht
tp TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:61783 a184-28-8-246.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.c
om:https ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:61793 a118-214.196-46.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:ht
tps ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:61802 a23-46-56-146.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.c
om:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:61807 a125-56.204-203.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:ht
tp TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:61923 ec2-54-206-79-128.ap-southeast-2.compute.amazona
ws.com:https ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62008 ec2-54-235-75-111.compute-1.amazonaws.com:http
ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62022 216.227.130.50:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62023 66.55.134.221.choopa.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62024 50.97.94.60-static.reverse.softlayer.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62025 66.85.177.138:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62026 50.23.131.196-static.reverse.softlayer.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62027 198.23.71.101-static.reverse.softlayer.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62028 162-254-149-26.static.hvvc.us:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62029 2e1c35a8.lon.100tb.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62030 h37-220-24-250.host.redstation.co.uk:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62031 tsn109-201-154-190.dyn.nltelcom.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62032 dyn.98.133.43.179.swissinet.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62033 cpe-199.19.95.106.ca.yorkinet.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62034 184-75-214-34.amanah.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62035 hosted-by.leaseweb.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62036 62-210-141-31.rev.poneytelecom.eu:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62037 5.153.234.58:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62038 lh25646.voxility.net:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62039 116-193-159-45.pacswitch.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62040 syd01s19-in-f25.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62041 syd01s19-in-f25.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62042 syd01s19-in-f25.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62043 syd01s19-in-f25.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62044 syd01s19-in-f25.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62045 119.15.70.143:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62046 a125-56.204-122.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62047 a125-56.204-122.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62049 ec2-23-21-169-67.compute-1.amazonaws.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62052 syd01s19-in-f13.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62055 syd01s19-in-f13.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62056 syd01s19-in-f8.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62068 ec2-54-85-71-192.compute-1.amazonaws.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62070 ec2-54-85-71-192.compute-1.amazonaws.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62071 syd01s19-in-f16.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62073 server-54-230-133-160.syd1.r.cloudfront.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62074 syd01s19-in-f28.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62075 syd01s19-in-f24.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62086 edge-star-shv-06-sin1.facebook.com:https ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62087 204.154.111.224:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62090 ec2-54-215-132-106.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62091 syd01s19-in-f27.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62092 syd01s19-in-f26.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62093 syd01s19-in-f26.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62094 a184-28-21-231.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62095 a184-28-21-231.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62096 syd01s19-in-f28.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62097 syd01s19-in-f26.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62098 syd01s19-in-f26.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62099 syd01s19-in-f28.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62101 syd01s19-in-f13.1e100.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62102 mpr2.ngd.vip.sg3.yahoo.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62103 50.97.236.98-static.reverse.softlayer.com:httpESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62106 a125-56.204-98.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:http ESTABLISHED
TCP 192.168.1.4:62107 ec2-23-23-186-71.compute-1.amazonaws.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62108 ec2-107-23-55-5.compute-1.amazonaws.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62110 a184-85-80-38.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62114 216.227.130.98:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62115 64.237.52.131.choopa.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62116 198.15.118.242:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62117 mpdedicated.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62118 198.23.71.69-static.reverse.softlayer.com:8888TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62119 198-178-127-20.static.hvvc.us:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62120 50.23.131.246-static.reverse.softlayer.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62121 83.170.111.150:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62122 250-142-3-149.rackcentre.redstation.net.uk:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62123 81.17.27.234:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62124 tsn109-201-154-146.dyn.nltelcom.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62125 cpe-198.144.159.202.ca.yorkinet.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62126 chance.agencyology.net:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62127 46.165.251.67:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62128 62-210-146-203.rev.poneytelecom.eu:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62129 185.3.135.146:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62130 lh22490.voxility.net:8888 TIME_WAIT
TCP 192.168.1.4:62131 116-193-159-36.pacswitch.com:8888 TIME_WAIT
 
Should we start a poll on what what we think the next though bubble policy release will be??
Click to expand...

Selling the ABC would be a good one. They could float that idea and say it would bring in billions, and then it all would break down in the face of public opinion.
 
I'm personally sick of our privacy and civil liberties being curtailed for security. I can understand it to some extent but I'm willing to chance that I would rather keep this privacy and run the risk of being killed in a terrorist attack due to the government not being able to capture a webpage from 24 months earlier. What good is security without freedom, that's the sort of direction we're heading. If these proposed laws were active in the US before 9/11 it wouldn't have even prevented it.
The ISPs have already come out and claimed this data retention is going to cost consumers upwards of $100 a year, for a government hell bent on reducing cost of living pressures this sure contradicts that.
 
Craton said:
So too with privacy. No amount of govt. guarantee will allay my fears that the data will be safe and secure from misuse, abuse, profiling, hacking and so much more.
Click to expand...
You don't think a huge amount of data is already being stored about you? Your credit card statement provides a record of where you shop, the store loyalty card if you use one, stores details about everything you buy. You'll have noticed that the big supermarkets are into much more than food, grog and petrol. They're into insurance and can easily ascertain from where and how often you buy petrol how much more or less risk you represent from an insurer's pov, ie much less if you tootle round a small regional centre v thousands of kms on open roads.
According to an item on 7.30 last night, they're about to have their banking arm offer loans also.
Then there's everything you put up on the internet, what you waffle on about on Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin et al.

McLovin said:
Now we wait for the usual "but if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about" cheer squad.
Click to expand...
Can you explain why that's not a pretty valid proposition? I don't think I'm particularly stupid or unrealistic but I would find it delusional to think the government is going to be even remotely interested in anything I do or what websites I visit etc.
 
overhang said:
I'm personally sick of our privacy and civil liberties being curtailed for security. I can understand it to some extent but I'm willing to chance that I would rather keep this privacy and run the risk of being killed in a terrorist attack due to the government not being able to capture a webpage from 24 months earlier.
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Well, I'm sure I wouldn't rather be killed by a suicide bomber who just decided to make the supreme sacrifice for his god right beside me than have my phone/internet use scooped up along with that of everyone else. Much prefer to stay alive, thanks. And just because no fanatic has yet committed such an atrocity in Australia does not mean there is not such an event being planned right now.

Our intelligence agencies have foiled several such schemes.
 
Julia said:
You don't think a huge amount of data is already being stored about you? Your credit card statement provides a record of where you shop, the store loyalty card if you use one, stores details about everything you buy.
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Of course there is a lot of information in the hands of corporate interests, but the trade of is convenience of not having to carry large amounts of cash, although if you don't want your buying habits on record you can withdraw cash and use that.

Does having this information justify any more being stored ? That argument never made any sense to me. Unless a stand is taken somewhere imagine where they will go next ? GPS on your car to see if you are speeding ? Hacking in to your web cams at home to see what you are doing (it can be done).

Just think of what hackers could do with the metadata. It could be sold off to people who have an axe to grind with certain individuals. To prospective employers. Insurance companies, finance companies etc. Innocent, but potentially embarrassing web searches could be used for blackmail. Then there is the cost that the ISP's will have to pay that gets passed on to us.

I really don't think it's wise to assume that the government will always act in our interest, or that they or their agencies are smart or diligent enough to keep the information secure and to only use it for the purposes intended.


Our intelligence agencies have foiled several such schemes.
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Yes they have, but not by data retention schemes. By relatives or friends of the suspects informing on them. That is the best way to combat terrorism, have a good relationship between the community and the intelligence agencies.

I would suggest that the data retention proposals would have exactly the opposite effect.
 
Julia said:
Can you explain why that's not a pretty valid proposition? I don't think I'm particularly stupid or unrealistic but I would find it delusional to think the government is going to be even remotely interested in anything I do or what websites I visit etc.
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Because every time the government further encroaches on our privacy the same tired old line is used.

Sniffer dogs at pubs, train stations, concerts -- "If you're doing nothing wrong it doesn't matter",

CCTV cameras being installed everywhere -- "If you're doing nothing wrong it doesn't matter"

Police being given access to people's Opal card history without a warrant -- "If you're doing nothing wrong it doesn't matter"

Having your ID scanned and recorded in a database when you go into a pub/bar/club -- "If you're doing nothing wrong it doesn't matter"

So where does it end?
 
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