Trump Derangement Syndrome

[luutzu]

The reason the Allies used the A Bomb during WW2 was because they had to invade Japan to stop them. Invading Japan was seen as being too horrific a battle, so they chose the A Bombs.

When Stalin was informed of the plan, his reaction was that he already knew what the Yanks had.

Very sad story, but if the Allies had to invade Japan, they would've faced every Japanese Man Woman and Child. Banzai and all that.

That's the version of history you write after you won the war.

We've discussed here before. The actual reason behind it has nothing to do with taking over Japan, street by street.

I mean, they didn't even try to take it street by street before the bombs - i.e. they did fire bomb some 100 cities, killing some 100,000 civilians in each. So it's not like the A Bomb was the last best hope before GIs were sent in to clean up block by block.

 

[Darc Knight]

The bomb didn't stop the war.

Um way to change the subject. Don't back away from your original comments.

It was all about land grabs in the end and the US negotiations won out before the Russians got to far in and got a share.

The bomb didn't stop the war. The Russians on the threat of a second front did.
The bomb was the saving excuse for Japan. "Did you see their awesome power despite 80% of our cities already being wiped out by conventional bombing"

You claimed Russia, the U.S. and Britian weren't working together.

Secondly, Japan unreservedly surendered after the second Bomb.

You're a troll, bit like Trump on Twitter. You admire him don't you.

 

[luutzu]

Class traitors ?

So your a Trump voter then ?

It's not "class traitors" or class warfare.

What is the purpose of governance? Particularly in a democracy? To help and serve the masses, yes?

For guys born with a few silver spoons up theirs, like Trump or Bush Jr.... They've always known wealth and see how great the country is if rich people like themselves rule. You know, being job creators etc.

That and they not knowing the suffering of the poor and downtrodden, they can be excused for not knowing or gives a damn about it. You can't expect too much of a person.

But for guys like Obama and Clinton. They grew up poor. From working, struggling family. They lived and experienced poverty; they got scholarships. I'm sure they also worked hard and are very smart. But if they have any brain at all they do appreciate the luck and the opportunity they were given. etc. etc.

For them to then get into power, into a position where with the stroke of a pen they could lift literally hundreds of millions out of poverty, give those greater opportunities. Did they do it? They don't give a damn.

It might be understandable if they just don't care for their history, where they came from. That's fine too.

But to then use that story as some sort of motivation for higher office. I'm doing this for my momma; I'm running to fight for the working class, the poor because I was one of them.... what total bs.

How Obama telling the world his mother was on her deathbed but are fighting the insurance company for health coverage blah blah. So of course he's going to fight for healthcare for all. Did he? Nope. Practically signed what the insurers gave him to sign.

Of course it's disgusting what Trump is. But he can be forgiven the way you forgive a snake from biting you. It's what they do.

For people who see and experience first hand... then speak the liberal bs but act like thugs. Yea, that's a whole different kind of psychopathology.

 

[luutzu]

The Russians declaring war on Japan two days after Hiroshima, mortified the Japs, because they thought Russia would help negotiate a truce on their behalf. The second bomb nailed the surrender.

No it didn't.

It was Russia's declaration on Japan, and Stalin sending the red army back east, that forced Japan's generals to tell the emperor to surrender.

Those Japanese generals are just as crazy as any other masters of mankind. They will sacrifice the last peasant just to hang on to power a little longer. And they have shown their willingness to do it by not surrendering after all those firebombing across their cities.

So when Stalin declare that he also wants to march into Tokyo, the military smarten up real quick to surrender lest the commies hang all of them, particularly the Imperial Family.

We all know what they did to the Tsars right? They'd do the same with Japan's Son of Heaven.

That and Japan will definitely be divvied up like Germany. It is better to keep your fallen empire in tact. Your emperor and his family might live... then one day down the track, you find excuse to rebuild and push the invaders out.

 

[Darc Knight]

No it didn't.

It was Russia's declaration on Japan, and Stalin sending the red army back east, that forced Japan's generals to tell the emperor to surrender.

Those Japanese generals are just as crazy as any other masters of mankind. They will sacrifice the last peasant just to hang on to power a little longer. And they have shown their willingness to do it by not surrendering after all those firebombing across their cities.

So when Stalin declare that he also wants to march into Tokyo, the military smarten up real quick to surrender lest the commies hang all of them, particularly the Imperial Family.

We all know what they did to the Tsars right? They'd do the same with Japan's Son of Heaven.

That and Japan will definitely be divvied up like Germany. It is better to keep your fallen empire in tact. Your emperor and his family might live... then one day down the track, you find excuse to rebuild and push the invaders out.

Wow. Think about it. Fear of a possible invasion or another A Bomb. Which would cause a surrender?
Japan would've welconed an invasion - die with honour. Can't fight an A Bomb though.

 

[moXJO]

You claimed Russia, the U.S. and Britian weren't working together.

Secondly, Japan unreservedly surendered after the second Bomb.

You're a troll, bit like Trump on Twitter. You admire him don't you.

Quote where I said they were not fighting a common foe together. Brits didn't like yanks and yanks didn't like russians. Patton pretty much started the cold war by dissing the Russians.

Quote from Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki

"If we miss (the chance) today, the Soviet Union will take not only Manchuria, Korea and Sakhalin, but also Hokkaido. We must end the war while we can deal with the United States."

 

[moXJO]

Wow. Think about it. Fear of a possible invasion or another A Bomb. Which would cause a surrender?
Japan would've welconed an invasion - die with honour. Can't fight an A Bomb though.

80% of the cities were already bombed out. It would take the yanks weeks or months to invade. It would take Russians 10 days to reach the capital.

 

[Darc Knight]

"In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

 

[luutzu]

Wow. Think about it. Fear of a possible invasion or another A Bomb. Which would cause a surrender?
Japan would've welconed an invasion - die with honour. Can't fight an A Bomb though.

The military higher ups doesn't care if cities inhabited by their peasants are bombed with whatever. They know it wouldn't land on their front lawn because if it did, there won't be anyone around to sign the peace treaty.

So the US can bomb and destroy with whatever it is they want, the military does not care.

They started to care when Stalin will join the party. Knowing the commies do not take kindly to kings and emperors; and will divvy up the country.

A country being occupied today would have a chance to be liberated later - if it's unified.

If two foreign power control bits of it, it will cease to exist as a historical entity and become two separate state.

That and I'm pretty sure the merchants and bankers of Japan would rather their country fall to the capitalists than the communists. There's a better chance of not ending up in Siberia or the countryside farming and working for a living.

 

[Darc Knight]

The military higher ups doesn't care if cities inhabited by their peasants are bombed with whatever. They know it wouldn't land on their front lawn because if it did, there won't be anyone around to sign the peace treaty.

So the US can bomb and destroy with whatever it is they want, the military does not care.

They started to care when Stalin will join the party. Knowing the commies do not take kindly to kings and emperors; and will divvy up the country.

A country being occupied today would have a chance to be liberated later - if it's unified.

If two foreign power control bits of it, it will cease to exist as a historical entity and become two separate state.

That and I'm pretty sure the merchants and bankers of Japan would rather their country fall to the capitalists than the communists. There's a better chance of not ending up in Siberia or the countryside farming and working for a living.

"In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

 

[moXJO]

"In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

Have a think why.

Put yourself in the shoes of the emperor. You’ve just led your country through a disastrous war. The economy is shattered. Eighty percent of your cities have been bombed and burned. The Army has been pummeled in a string of defeats. The Navy has been decimated and confined to port. Starvation is looming. The war, in short, has been a catastrophe and, worst of all, you’ve been lying to your people about how bad the situation really is. They will be shocked by news of surrender. So which would you rather do? Admit that you failed badly? Issue a statement that says that you miscalculated spectacularly, made repeated mistakes, and did enormous damage to the nation? Or would you rather blame the loss on an amazing scientific breakthrough that no one could have predicted? At a single stroke, blaming the loss of the war on the atomic bomb swept all the mistakes and misjudgments of the war under the rug. The Bomb was the perfect excuse for having lost the war. No need to apportion blame; no court of enquiry need be held. Japan’s leaders were able to claim they had done their best. So, at the most general level the Bomb served to deflect blame from Japan’s leaders.

But attributing Japan’s defeat to the Bomb also served three other specific political purposes. First, it helped to preserve the legitimacy of the emperor. If the war was lost not because of mistakes but because of the enemy’s unexpected miracle weapon, then the institution of the emperor might continue to find support within Japan.

Second, it appealed to international sympathy. Japan had waged war aggressively, and with particular brutality toward conquered peoples. Its behavior was likely to be condemned by other nations. Being able to recast Japan as a victimized nation — one that had been unfairly bombed with a cruel and horrifying instrument of war — would help to offset some of the morally repugnant things Japan’s military had done. Drawing attention to the atomic bombings helped to paint Japan in a more sympathetic light and deflect support for harsh punishment.

Finally, saying that the Bomb won the war would please Japan’s American victors.

 

[moXJO]

Smoke and mirrors. The new info is coming from declassified documents from Russia and Japan.

 

[Darc Knight]

"In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

 

[luutzu]

"In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

Of course you'd say that if you're the Emperor.

Why else would an emperor surrender if not to save his people and the country from ruin. Surrender out of fear?

Here, from a great doco "Fog of War".

Note how many cities were either half or almost completely destroyed before the two nukes.

 

[Tisme]

"In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

In the unlikely event that wiki is a reliable source, the compelling story in this issue is the Jap war records suggest it was the Soviets and Mongol Armies invading their Manchukao (Manchuria) state on the mainland per the Potsdam agreements.

My guess it was bomb invade bomb

 

[Tisme]

1980

 

[moXJO]

How the hell did we go from discussing how awesome trump is, to Japan’s surrender to the US in ww2?

Personally I blame Darc and his incessant trolling

 

[Tisme]

No it didn't.

It was Russia's declaration on Japan, and Stalin sending the red army back east, that forced Japan's generals to tell the emperor to surrender.

Those Japanese generals are just as crazy as any other masters of mankind. They will sacrifice the last peasant just to hang on to power a little longer. And they have shown their willingness to do it by not surrendering after all those firebombing across their cities.

So when Stalin declare that he also wants to march into Tokyo, the military smarten up real quick to surrender lest the commies hang all of them, particularly the Imperial Family.

We all know what they did to the Tsars right? They'd do the same with Japan's Son of Heaven.

That and Japan will definitely be divvied up like Germany. It is better to keep your fallen empire in tact. Your emperor and his family might live... then one day down the track, you find excuse to rebuild and push the invaders out.

There's really good book written by Jap historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa who trolled through the event and records. He maintains it was the smack in the face by the Russians that put the icing on the capitulation.

 

[Tisme]

How the hell did we go from discussing how awesome trump is, to Japan’s surrender to the US in ww2?

Personally I blame Darc and his incessant trolling

For consistency you should have thrown in a sarcastic flame for Darc, Something like:

"You're a troll, bit like anti Trumpeters on Twitter."

 

[moXJO]

"You're a troll, bit like anti Trumpeters on Twitter."

I think the important thing is that bas is finally quoting fox news as reference.