Veganism

[qldfrog]

Understanding a vegan diet.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...diet-healthy-b12-calcium-iodine-iron/11698020

Never understood how can someone with straight face tell me they prefer a diet which HAS to be supplemented with pills
Nor as a bee keeper, someone banning honey.
The power of propaganda is incredible, i now understand how hitler first then the communists and now china can be so successfull
I have no problem with vegetarian diet, which can be sustainable but vegan is heresy

 

[Value Collector]

Never understood how can someone with straight face tell me they prefer a diet which HAS to be supplemented with pills
Nor as a bee keeper, someone banning honey.
The power of propaganda is incredible, i now understand how hitler first then the communists and now china can be so successfull
I have no problem with vegetarian diet, which can be sustainable but vegan is heresy

Actually the average meat eater is missing more vitamins in their diet than the average vegan.

As a a plant based eater that eats a lot of Fruits, veggies. nuts and leafy greens, you get loads of vitamins and minerals.

The only vitamin that you need to get via fortified food is B12, because modern humans don’t eat as much bacteria in their diet anymore, and B12 is produced by bacteria.

but your body stores up to 5 years worth of B12 in your liver, because we evolved for millions of years only getting b12 from the occasional insect, so you don’t need to be eating daily steaks for B12.

If you are worried about b12, just choose a Soy Milk with B12 in it for your coffee, or if you are plant based for ethical reasons, just include a few mussels or oysters one a month of so, given that they have no brains, they are fine from an ethical stand point in my opinion.

———————
I also don’t go out of my way to avoid honey, I don’t see any ethical reason to avoid it, so knock your self out.

 

[Klogg]

Actually the average meat eater is missing more vitamins in their diet than the average vegan.

As a a plant based eater that eats a lot of Fruits, veggies. nuts and leafy greens, you get loads of vitamins and minerals.

The only vitamin that you need to get via fortified food is B12, because modern humans don’t eat as much bacteria in their diet anymore, and B12 is produced by bacteria.

but your body stores up to 5 years worth of B12 in your liver, because we evolved for millions of years only getting b12 from the occasional insect, so you don’t need to be eating daily steaks for B12.

If you are worried about b12, just choose a Soy Milk with B12 in it for your coffee, or if you are plant based for ethical reasons, just include a few mussels or oysters one a month of so, given that they have no brains, they are fine from an ethical stand point in my opinion.

———————
I also don’t go out of my way to avoid honey, I don’t see any ethical reason to avoid it, so knock your self out.

There's also the consideration of an omega 6 overload. Increased Omega 6 intake, in particular the overload of linoleic acid has a negative effect on the body's inflammatory response. This is also why modern society needs to move away from vegetable/seed oils. Butter and lard are far healthier, in the right circumstances.
On the vegan diet - add that to the lack of Omega 3, and you're also talking increased risk of heart disease, compared to someone on a LCHF diet.

Iron, zinc and calcium also come to mind as deficiencies in the vegan diet. You can supplement, but the bio-availability of these supplements in this form is nowhere near as good. And if you are short on calcium, chances are your Vitamin D levels are low too.


The reason most meat eaters are deficient in vitamins and minerals is because they're eating all the flesh and none of the organs. Liver, kidney, brain and other organ meats are very high in saturated fats (a good thing, despite the bogus heart health hypothesis that's taken as gospel) and also provide the vitamins/minerals you mention.

Our standard western diet is very bad in many ways. Eating animals is not necessarily one, unless you're spiking insulin levels at the same time as consuming large amounts of flesh.

Metabolic syndrome and insulin insensitivity (NOT blood glucose levels - this is a lagging indicator) are the biggest problems and indicators for heart disease and diabetes. Yet, we recommend high carb intake, low saturated fats, higher poly-unsaturated fats and demonize the wrong foods... then we make it worse by promoting lower cholesterol, as if that's the causal factor. Go figure.

 

[Value Collector]

There's also the consideration of an omega 6 overload. Increased Omega 6 intake, in particular the overload of linoleic acid has a negative effect on the body's inflammatory response. This is also why modern society needs to move away from vegetable/seed oils. Butter and lard are far healthier, in the right circumstances.
On the vegan diet - add that to the lack of Omega 3, and you're also talking increased risk of heart disease, compared to someone on a LCHF diet.

Iron, zinc and calcium also come to mind as deficiencies in the vegan diet. You can supplement, but the bio-availability of these supplements in this form is nowhere near as good. And if you are short on calcium, chances are your Vitamin D levels are low too.


The reason most meat eaters are deficient in vitamins and minerals is because they're eating all the flesh and none of the organs. Liver, kidney, brain and other organ meats are very high in saturated fats (a good thing, despite the bogus heart health hypothesis that's taken as gospel) and also provide the vitamins/minerals you mention.

Our standard western diet is very bad in many ways. Eating animals is not necessarily one, unless you're spiking insulin levels at the same time as consuming large amounts of flesh.

Metabolic syndrome and insulin insensitivity (NOT blood glucose levels - this is a lagging indicator) are the biggest problems and indicators for heart disease and diabetes. Yet, we recommend high carb intake, low saturated fats, higher poly-unsaturated fats and demonize the wrong foods... then we make it worse by promoting lower cholesterol, as if that's the causal factor. Go figure.

All omega 3’s come from plants, omega 3’s only exist in animals because those animals have eaten plants that contain omega 3’s.

So if you want to boost your omega 3’s, add some plants containing omega 3’s into your diet.

sprinkle some chia seeds over some Vegemite and avocardo on toast and you will get both the B12 qldfrog mentioned and the omega3 you mentioned, or as I said earlier have a few mussels, this stuff isn’t hard.

As for lard and butter, they are real heart stoppers.

 

[Value Collector]

Never understood how can someone with straight face tell me they prefer a diet which HAS to be supplemented with pills
Nor as a bee keeper, someone banning honey.
The power of propaganda is incredible, i now understand how hitler first then the communists and now china can be so successfull
I have no problem with vegetarian diet, which can be sustainable but vegan is heresy

check this out, I know the first vitamin people always say vegans will miss out on is B12.

But a piece of Vegemite on toast (salt reduced version), and a soy milk coffee gets me to my daily intake of B12, and that’s just breakfast.

if I used my normal 9grain bread and sprinkled on some chia seeds, I would have given my omega 3 that klogg is worried about a boost too.

 

[Knobby22]

Have you heard about this Value Collector?
There is an ingredient that is in large quantities in human milk and lots of other items that are vegetarian (like cheese) but not in the Vegan diet. It's lack causes fatty liver as a side effect and also means that kids won't grow properly.

I read about it in New Scientist. I will get more info when I get time, doing this from memory. I believe its causing quite a stir in the Vegan community.

(Also regarding Vegemite, yeast is not a plant though its not an animal either.)

 

[Klogg]

All omega 3’s come from plants, omega 3’s only exist in animals because those animals have eaten plants that contain omega 3’s.

So if you want to boost your omega 3’s, add some plants containing omega 3’s into your diet.

sprinkle some chia seeds over some Vegemite and avocardo on toast and you will get both the B12 qldfrog mentioned and the omega3 you mentioned, or as I said earlier have a few mussels, this stuff isn’t hard.

As for lard and butter, they are real heart stoppers.

"As for lard and butter, they are real heart stoppers"


The above statement is horribly wrong. Heart calcification is not caused by saturated fat. High LDL cholesterol is not the cause either, as particle size (among other things) matter hugely.
As I mentioned, the heart health hypothesis is so wrong its not even funny. Nina Teicholz book, The Big Fat Surprise is great for insight into this book, as is Gary Taubes' writing.

Peter Attia has a very good series of talks on YouTube about cholesterol and how it really applies to heart disease, although it gets extremely technical.

Finally on omega 3 - plants are high in ALA alone. EPA and DHA can only really be found in meat (mainly fish). So where it matters, the vegan diet falls short.

 

[Klogg]

"As for lard and butter, they are real heart stoppers"


The above statement is horribly wrong. Heart calcification is not caused by saturated fat. High LDL cholesterol is not the cause either, as particle size (among other things) matter hugely.
As I mentioned, the heart health hypothesis is so wrong its not even funny. Nina Teicholz book, The Big Fat Surprise is great for insight into this book, as is Gary Taubes' writing.

Peter Attia has a very good series of talks on YouTube about cholesterol and how it really applies to heart disease, although it gets extremely technical.

Finally on omega 3 - plants are high in ALA alone. EPA and DHA can only really be found in meat (mainly fish). So where it matters, the vegan diet falls short.

Also, just because an animal sources something elsewhere, it doesn't mean I can just go to that source.
They take the raw material and do something to it - then we consume it.

 

[Value Collector]

Finally on omega 3 - plants are high in ALA alone. EPA and DHA can only really be found in meat (mainly fish). So where it matters, the vegan diet falls short.

Our bodies convert ALA into EPA and DHA.

if you want to boost EPA and DHA on a vegan diet, eat some Sushi with seaweed in it, or as I said if you are only avoiding animals for ethical reasons, you can always add in some mussels or oysters (not vegan, but more ethical than other animals).

—————-

Yeah, yeast is a bacteria, as I said all B12 comes from bacteria, no animal synthesizes B12.

we like all mammals generate B12 in our Large intestine due to the bacteria in there , but it isn’t absorbed Through the large intestine, so hence why some animals eat their own poop.

but as I said rather than slaughter animals or eat your own poop, you can just have some vegimite (low salt version only), or have so soy milk, or one of the dozens of other vegan products that contain it.

 

[Value Collector]

Heart calcification is also linked to dairy products, the human body can’t properly absorb calcium if there isn’t some other vitamins such as vitamin K and minerals, relying on dairy for calcium can create calcium deposits form in the heart, because they might not have there other vitamins in the correct amounts.

however, plant based calcium sources generally have very good ratios of the other vitamins to match the calcium.

 

[satanoperca]

however, plant based calcium sources generally have very good ratios of the other vitamins to match the calcium.

Firstly, I not here to argue, so some of your points are valid and worth discussion.

First : why eat vegimite, it is horrible, drink stout instead, gives added iron.

But would be interested in hearing about your knowledge of these 2 facts :
Calcium in Milk 125mg/100g
Calcium in Spinach 99mg/100g

While these are figures they are relatively irrelevant when consider which of the 2 can be adsorbed by the gut the most effective.

That is much harder to find reliable figures on as the dairy industry is more powerful than the spinach industry and giving unproven facts.

 

[Klogg]

Our bodies convert ALA into EPA and DHA.

if you want to boost EPA and DHA on a vegan diet, eat some Sushi with seaweed in it, or as I said if you are only avoiding animals for ethical reasons, you can always add in some mussels or oysters (not vegan, but more ethical than other animals).

—————-

Yeah, yeast is a bacteria, as I said all B12 comes from bacteria, no animal synthesizes B12.

we like all mammals generate B12 in our Large intestine due to the bacteria in there , but it isn’t absorbed Through the large intestine, so hence why some animals eat their own poop.

but as I said rather than slaughter animals or eat your own poop, you can just have some vegimite (low salt version only), or have so soy milk, or one of the dozens of other vegan products that contain it.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Omega3FattyAcids-HealthProfessional/


See bolded section in the paragraph below.

The human body can only form carbon–carbon double bonds after the 9th carbon from the methyl end of a fatty acid [1]. Therefore, ALA and linoleic acid are considered essential fatty acids, meaning that they must be obtained from the diet [2]. ALA can be converted into EPA and then to DHA, but the conversion (which occurs primarily in the liver) is very limited, with reported rates of less than 15% [3]. Therefore, consuming EPA and DHA directly from foods and/or dietary supplements is the only practical way to increase levels of these fatty acids in the body.

 

[Value Collector]

Firstly, I not here to argue, so some of your points are valid and worth discussion.

First : why eat vegimite, it is horrible, drink stout instead, gives added iron.

But would be interested in hearing about your knowledge of these 2 facts :
Calcium in Milk 125mg/100g
Calcium in Spinach 99mg/100g

While these are figures they are relatively irrelevant when consider which of the 2 can be adsorbed by the gut the most effective.

That is much harder to find reliable figures on as the dairy industry is more powerful than the spinach industry and giving unproven facts.

In regards to spinach vs dairy.

Given than the majority of the human population are lactose intolerant to some extent, it is actually dairy based calcium That isn’t being absorbed by most people.

Also, dairy cause some other funky acidity chemistry side effects in the human body That can cause calcium to actually leach out of our bones.

All the folks that are struggling with osteoporosis today come from the generation that consumed the most amount of dairy in history, if dairy is so good for bones why is this generation of westerners struggling so much?

 

[Value Collector]

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Omega3FattyAcids-HealthProfessional/


See bolded section in the paragraph below.

The human body can only form carbon–carbon double bonds after the 9th carbon from the methyl end of a fatty acid [1]. Therefore, ALA and linoleic acid are considered essential fatty acids, meaning that they must be obtained from the diet [2]. ALA can be converted into EPA and then to DHA, but the conversion (which occurs primarily in the liver) is very limited, with reported rates of less than 15% [3]. Therefore, consuming EPA and DHA directly from foods and/or dietary supplements is the only practical way to increase levels of these fatty acids in the body.

As I said if you are that concerned, eat some seaweed, or have some mussels.

I haven’t actually read any scientific research That says you can’t get sufficient epa or DHA on a plant based diet.

even if only 15% of ala got converted, there is a lot of Ala in a vegan diet, even staples like peas contain omega 3, and the highest concentration of omega 3’s come in vegan foods.

 

[qldfrog]

Anyway, everyone is free to make him or herself sick, just do not force and tell me what to do
And the worry is that these movements come from a generally very intolerant and free choice rejecting teachings.
Far away are the times of the laught at hippies or Buddhist monks.
We are in the Hillary's legacy hate and rage, that is the only thing which worries me, be it CC, diet, reading material,. Basically freedom...
Add another 4 billions on earth and we will all have to eat ****, let's all hope for our sanity that we will be brainwashed into thinking it is for the better

 

[qldfrog]

And from your ABC the full opposite
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-05/carnivore-diet-of-meat-and-water/11757396
To each his own, this seems to have helped many people
Maybe the old saying that society has wolves and sheeps is actually going deeper than we think

 

[qldfrog]

And to close my inputs about vegan/vegetalism
An interesting diet herehttps://www.thelunaticfarmer.com/blog2/12/4/2019/ultra-minimalist
Hope you enjoy this reading

 

[wayneL]

For the sake of discussion (I'm not vegan). First half is religion, atheism, politics and society, skip to 27:55 for the vegan discussion.

FWIW

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Boy, am I confused? I just learnt that vegans don't consume honey, as it comes from bees.

Does that mean that any plant food pollinated by our arthropod friends is also off the menu?.

 

[SirRumpole]

Boy, am I confused? I just learnt that vegans don't consume honey, as it comes from bees.

Does that mean that any plant food pollinated by our arthropod friends is also off the menu?.

Some are more extreme than others.

Our resident vegan made a lot of money from honey.