Where is/can Donald Trump take US (sic)?

sptrawler said:

The jobs went to Mexico in the 1970's when the Lima agreement was signed, after the South American countries defaulted on their loans.

The article you posted shows trump endeavoured to protect the steel industry, but if the companies don't want to spend the money updating plant and want to instead make the profit by offshoring to exploit cheap labour countries, is that Trumps fault? They should put higher tarrifs on and force the companies to improve their plant in return.
From your article:

The tariffs did initially benefit companies including U.S. Steel and Nucor by limiting competition and boosting prices. In late 2018, U.S. Steel workers secured a cumulative 14% wage increase over a four-year period.

The tariffs also led to investment, said Jeff Ferry, chief economist at the Coalition for a Prosperous America, a bipartisan trade group. Older coal-fired plants such as Great Lakes Works closed because of outdated technology, he said.

That’s little comfort to the workers laid off from Great Lakes Works, who have found it harder to get new jobs amid the pandemic,

So in reality how you can blame Trump, just shows how effective the media brainwashing is. The company boosted profits but didn't spend any money on improving the plant and that's Trump's fault? lol
Just my opinion.
I guess the election will show if the Americans as as easily hoodwinked as the Australians.

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I think his approach is wrong. If he wants to bring manufacturing back to the USA he needs to use other tools. Tarriffs are a blunt instrument that hurts manufacturing if done badly. If stell is dearer for instance then it costs more to build cars, so car manufacturers will move.

China is actually doing better to the USA since tariffs were put in. Different tactics are needed.
He promotes simplistic answers to complex problems.

Now the USA is getting into a cold war with China, things will change no matter who is in power.
https://www.gzeromedia.com/graphic-truth-us-china-trade-balance

Knobby22 said:

I think his approach is wrong. If he wants to bring manufacturing back to the USA he needs to use other tools. Tarriffs are a blunt instrument that hurts manufacturing if done badly. If stell is dearer for instance then it costs more to build cars, so car manufacturers will move.

China is actually doing better to the USA since tariffs were put in. Different tactics are needed.
He promotes simplistic answers to complex problems.

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We have been through this before and it is a waste of time, but what do you suggest.
Western countries that look after their workers and in some cases pay welfare, can't compete with China in manufacturing, which in the end will cause western countries to be unable to afford to pay the wages and welfare they currently enjoy.

The last few U.S administrations have appealed to China to float their currency, so that the cost of production of their product is reflected in the price.
China continually refused, so as the U.S dropped the value of its currency to make its product cheaper, the Chinese just keep dropping the value of their yuan, then your toaster and kettle go down to $7, which in reality is probably cheaper than the sum of its components.

So Trump comes along and says right unless you come to the table about revaluing your currency, we will put a tax on U.S products that are made in China, the rest is history.

The U.S companies didn't like it.

But hey asking them nicely has worked in the past. Not.

sptrawler said:

We have been through this before and it is a waste of time, but what do you suggest.
Western countries that look after their workers and in some cases pay welfare, can't compete with China in manufacturing, which in the end will cause western countries to be unable to afford to pay the wages and welfare they currently enjoy.

The last few U.S administrations have appealed to China to float their currency, so that the cost of production of their product is reflected in the price.
China continually refused, so as the U.S dropped the value of its currency to make its product cheaper, the Chinese just keep dropping the value of their yuan, then your toaster and kettle go down to $7, which in reality is probably cheaper than the sum of its components.

So Trump comes along and says right unless you come to the table about revaluing your currency, we will put a tax on U.S products that are made in China, the rest is history.

The U.S companies didn't like it.

But hey asking them nicely has worked in the past. Not.

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Yes, some billionaires are taking the Fed Government to court to stop it. True. Trouble is it isn't working but it is a great signal that things have to change.

There are other options that can also be used. Taxes that favour local manufacturing. Building infrastructure to reduce costs of manufacturers e.g. road and rail networks, power subsidies, an organization like the CSIRO to work with companies to improve competitiveness and scientific knowledge, work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line. Ensuring high tech industries do not operate in China. This is just top of the head. I am sure there are smart people in the USA who could work out other ways.

We in Australia could do this also.

Knobby22 said:

work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line.

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I agree with your sentiment, but words need to be chosen carefully. We do not need to punish China. That is so primary school level fighting.

We just need to be smarter than them, through as you have suggested greater investment into sciences and technologies.

The only problem I see is China is already miles ahead of us. They implement 50 year plans, we implement 4 year plans. Hard to bet them, when they don't have elections every 4 years

Knobby22 said:

Yes, some billionaires are taking the Fed Government to court to stop it. True. Trouble is it isn't working but it is a great signal that things have to change.

There are other options that can also be used. Taxes that favour local manufacturing.

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Yes, that is tariffs, China has cheap labour, no work place agreements, no minimum wage, no welfare, cheap power, cheap houses, controlled currency.
so how do you adjust taxes so we can supply a competitive product at a competitive price and maintain wages and conditions, welfare, cheap houses, cheap power and maintain our living standard?

Knobby22 said:

Building infrastructure to reduce costs of manufacturers e.g. road and rail networks, power subsidies, an organization like the CSIRO to work with companies to improve competitiveness and scientific knowledge, work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line. Ensuring high tech industries do not operate in China. This is just top of the head. I am sure there are smart people in the USA who could work out other ways.

We in Australia could do this also.

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Really what planet are you on, the only way that we can compete is if China starts and charges a price for its goods, that other countries can compete with i.e deregulate their currency.
If not, first world countries like Australia will become third world and China will own us and be holidaying here, we will be an outback version of Bali.
The upside to that is we will have no trouble becoming 'green' and clean, we wont be able to afford to run all of our electrical gadgets, Indonesia with a population of 250million uses about the same amount of power as we do with a population of 25million.
The good thing is at least the media will go broke and reporters wont be on $million dollar wages. ?

But we will just keep sleepwalking over the cliff, because the media tells us it is the best thing for us.?

Anyway probably enough on the issue, we will just have to wait untill you get enough batteries for your magic wand and get people to buy an Aussie toaster for $70 instead of the Chinese equivalent for $7.
My guess is we will be living like the Chinese, when we can compete, but bring it on everyone seems to be cheering for it, at least then we wont have to stupid shows like the boss sleeping on the street, we will all be able to do it. ?

What people forget is, it was only 40 years ago you could buy an aussie kettle, fridge, T.V, we even made trains and rolling stock.
it was only a couple of years ago we made cars, but reducing tariffs made that uncompetitive, so i guess we just keep marching on untill the raw materials are gone.lol

satanoperca said:

We just need to be smarter than them, through as you have suggested greater investment into sciences and technologies.

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Which they then either copy or buy up, or the company, that makes it can make it 100 times cheaper in China, sends the manufacturing there.

satanoperca said:

The only problem I see is China is already miles ahead of us. They implement 50 year plans, we implement 4 year plans. Hard to bet them, when they don't have elections every 4 years

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Or pay welfare or have a medicare system, or pay a minimum wage, or pay sick leave, 4 weeks annual leave, long service leave.

Do you really think Australia can compete with China without some regulation on their currency, or duty on their competing imports.
This is an investment forum, one would expect, the fundamentals of a competitive business wouldn't be hard to understand.

Don't know why you bring the media into it. I think its just a good way for some people to avoid responsibility and pass the buck.

Manufacturing is more than toasters and we win when stuff is made cheaper and they lower their currency.
And the world is becoming more automated so labour costs are less important.

We, in the western world just have to acted a bit smarter, Germany has competed on the world stage with amazingly good worker conditions. The English speaking world are slowly waking up, even Australia.

Knobby22 said:

Don't know why you bring the media into it. I think its just a good way for some people to avoid responsibility and pass the buck.

Manufacturing is more than toasters and we win when stuff is made cheaper and they lower their currency.
And the world is becoming more automated so labour costs are less important.

We, in the western world just have to acted a bit smarter, Germany has competed on the world stage with amazingly good worker conditions. The English speaking world are slowly waking up, even Australia.

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Why I bring the media into it, is actually because of the very things you posted e.g.
There are other options that can also be used. Taxes that favour local manufacturing. Building infrastructure to reduce costs of manufacturers e.g. road and rail networks, power subsidies, an organization like the CSIRO to work with companies to improve competitiveness and scientific knowledge, work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line. Ensuring high tech industries do not operate in China. This is just top of the head. I am sure there are smart people in the USA who could work out other ways.

Which is exactly what Trump is doing and what you criticise him for, the problem lies in people not thinking about the bigger picture and letting the media do it for them.
There are multiple examples in many threads, of where people's perceptions are being manipulated in order to paint politicians in a particular light, this is really glaring where the deliniation between State and Federal responsibilities is muddied.
The Federal government gets blamed when it is a State issue and the States get blamed when it is a Federal issue, this is usually done to paint a certain politician in a bad light.

As for Germany well they have been importing cheap labor for years, mostly from Turkey from memory and a lot of their cars are built overseas, our VW's are built in South Africa for example.

sptrawler said:

Which they then either copy or buy up, or the company, that makes it can make it 100 times cheaper in China, sends the manufacturing there.


Or pay welfare or have a medicare system, or pay a minimum wage, or pay sick leave, 4 weeks annual leave, long service leave.

Do you really think Australia can compete with China without some regulation on their currency, or duty on their competing imports.
This is an investment forum, one would expect, the fundamentals of a competitive business wouldn't be hard to understand.

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Firstly I am in agreeance with your statements.

But to add to the discussion :
Which they then either copy or buy up" As someone who has being going to China for manufacturing for 20 years, in summary this is what I have learnt>
1. Chinese do not copy, as they do not know what to copy. Westerners take product to China to be copied, this is a fundamental difference.
2. We cannot compete against China, as you have pointed out, it is not a level playing ground, their social services, workplace, minimum wage requirements are very different. But that is not their fault.
3. Possibly the most important of them all, us westerners support it. Several years ago I was having a heated discussion with a union rep, he was pro Australian, which I am. However, I tried to explain to him that it was not as simple as his beliefs, it required people to act. He looked at me confused, and then commented, we need to support Australian business, I looked at him puzzled. Really, I replied and then asked him if he did? He looked again at me puzzled. I then asked him where his shirt, pants, socks, work boots where made.
His response what an example of why the current situation is what it is.

I don't know. Well it didn't take long to realise everything he was wearing was made offshore. When presented with this simple demonstration that it is a little more complicated. His response was simple.

Why should I pay more?

In which, I asked him, so your original comment, that we should support Australian business, sounds great as long as it doesn't cost you.

He looked at me again, puzzled.

End of story

As for China not floating their currency, they are just smarter than us, it has worked in their advantage and we have supported it and allowed it.

Knobby22 said:

There are other options that can also be used. Taxes that favour local manufacturing. Building infrastructure to reduce costs of manufacturers e.g. road and rail networks, power subsidies, an organization like the CSIRO to work with companies to improve competitiveness and scientific knowledge, work with the world to punish China and multinationals when they go out of line. Ensuring high tech industries do not operate in China. This is just top of the head. I am sure there are smart people in the USA who could work out other ways.

Click to expand...

satanoperca said:

Firstly I am in agreeance with your statements.

But to add to the discussion :
Which they then either copy or buy up" As someone who has being going to China for manufacturing for 20 years, in summary this is what I have learnt>
1. Chinese do not copy, as they do not know what to copy. Westerners take product to China to be copied, this is a fundamental difference.
2. We cannot compete against China, as you have pointed out, it is not a level playing ground, their social services, workplace, minimum wage requirements are very different. But that is not their fault.
3. Possibly the most important of them all, us westerners support it. Several years ago I was having a heated discussion with a union rep, he was pro Australian, which I am. However, I tried to explain to him that it was not as simple as his beliefs, it required people to act. He looked at me confused, and then commented, we need to support Australian business, I looked at him puzzled. Really, I replied and then asked him if he did? He looked again at me puzzled. I then asked him where his shirt, pants, socks, work boots where made.
His response what an example of why the current situation is what it is.

I don't know. Well it didn't take long to realise everything he was wearing was made offshore. When presented with this simple demonstration that it is a little more complicated. His response was simple.

Why should I pay more?

In which, I asked him, so your original comment, that we should support Australian business, sounds great as long as it doesn't cost you.

He looked at me again, puzzled.

End of story

As for China not floating their currency, they are just smarter than us, it has worked in their advantage and we have supported it and allowed it.

Click to expand...

Exactly right Satanoperca.
As you were saying people will buy what is cheapest which is understandable, hence the demise of our car industry, shoe and clothing industries, it started dying as soon as Hawke and Keating started removing the tariffs, it was only a matter of time.
The ideology behind it is sounds great, removing tariffs makes industry more competitive and secondly some things are inefficient to make here because it is a small local market place.

The other part of the equation, was to offshore manufacturing to third world countries, to improve their living standards. In some places this has worked, in others the poor still don't get anything and the elite keep it.
With China they have done a brilliant job IMO, of bringing their country into the first world in 30 years, however they have to put a brake on it as it is crippling manufacturing everywhere else.
This can only be done by increasing the cost of their product, this has a two fold effect it reduces wastage of the "it is cheaper to replace it, than fix it" mentality at the end user stage, also it means the manufacturer makes more per unit and can translate that into increased wages/conditions or the Government can increase taxes and improve welfare.

The end game for first world countries isn't looking good, if the trajectory continues with Chinese gear getting cheaper and domestic manufacturing failing, eventually there will be a complete roll reversal. I only hope the Chinese are as benevolent toward us, as we have been toward them, but the latest trade emborgoes don't bode well for that happening.

IFocus said:

Westpac senior currency strategist Sean Callow has been following the currency markets and traders' views on who will win the election. He says since those two events, financial markets are now pricing in (predicting) a comfortable Joe Biden election victory.

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Interesting...
Certainly the polls are showing 7-10-12 point margins in favour of Joe Biden and normally that would indicate a safe victory,
However in the US of 2020 it is not a question of how many people vote in favour of a candidate but

1) Who counts the votes and
2) Whose votes are counted

basilio said:

Interesting...
Certainly the polls are showing 7-10-12 point margins in favour of Joe Biden and normally that would indicate a safe victory,
However in the US of 2020 it is not a question of how many people vote in favour of a candidate but

1) Who counts the votes and
2) Whose votes are counted

Click to expand...

Well I guess if Biden wins, it is fair and if Trump wins it is rigged. ?

Who wins the Senate is the issue if Biden wins but loses in the Senate then not much will happen except 4 years of more or deeper division.

basilio said:

Interesting...
Certainly the polls are showing 7-10-12 point margins in favour of Joe Biden and normally that would indicate a safe victory,
However in the US of 2020 it is not a question of how many people vote in favour of a candidate but

1) Who counts the votes and
2) Whose votes are counted

Click to expand...

To add:
Its 3 states that matter. And enthusiasm of voters.


Trump is back to the rallies so watch for shifts the next two weeks.

sptrawler said:

Well I guess if Biden wins, it is fair and if Trump wins it is rigged. ?

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I reckon if Biden wins and Trump says that's fair then it's Trump himself who is rigged

moXJO said:

Trump is back to the rallies so watch for shifts the next two weeks.

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I think it is simpler than that the silent majority are just sick of the left.

It sounds as though it gets pretty heated over in the U.S, even in retirement villages.

From the article:

The Villages, Florida: It is Debi Hahn’s first golf cart parade for Donald Trump, and she came dressed for the occasion. Sparkly denim Trump hat. Stars-and-stripes leggings. Trump sneakers. Complementing the outfit is her green golf cart, plastered in pro-Trump flags, stickers and signs.

The 68-year-old grandmother lives in The Villages, a sprawling area in central Florida that is the biggest retirement village in the United States. Often described as a "Disneyland for retirees", The Villages boasts more than 80 swimming pools, 100 tennis courts and 50 golf courses, making it a magnet for senior citizens from across the country.

Here, golf carts are not just the favoured mode of transport but of political protest. To display their support for the US President, hundreds of Villagers have gathered to ride their carts together across the specially-designed trails that wind around the area.

"I think he’s awesome," Hahn says while waiting for the parade to begin. “I wish people would just leave him alone so he could do an even better job. He has the country’s best interests at heart.”


Americans over 65 make up a quarter of the electorate and — even more importantly — they turn out to vote in bigger numbers than any other age group. In the 2016 election, 71 per cent of them voted compared to just 46 per cent of 18 to 29-year-olds.

While The Villages bills itself as "America's friendliest hometown", political disputes can get heated here.

Just ask 72-year-old Ed McGinty, who has been dubbed the "most hated man in The Villages".


Before moving to Florida from Pennsylvania five years ago, the retired real estate broker had never been involved in political activism. Then he became radicalised by Trump.

McGinty has taken to displaying often crude signs on his golf cart calling Trump "white trash", a "filthy pig" and "Putin's bitch". In June, he went to the police to report getting attacked by a Trump supporter who took offence at one of his signs, leaving him with a bloodied lip and scratches on his neck.

For an hour each afternoon McGinty sits by a busy road with his golf cart to spread his message. When The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age visit him, he is displaying a sign saying: "May Donald Trump burn in hell 200,000 dead". One angry woman pulls over to call him "un-American" and tell him he should be ashamed of himself.


Sounds as exciting as the 'swinging arms", front bar at Kambalda.lol

dutchie said:

I think it is simpler than that the silent majority are just sick of the left.

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I think the majority as loosing more than than the 1%> chump man is for the 1%, if he wasn't and wants to expel that his is a billionaire, pay some taxes.

You dutchie must be in the 1% of earners.

Chump man is the swamp!

satanoperca said:

You dutchie must be in the 1% of earners.

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Who told you that?

Seems as if no matter hard they try Trump, Barr and the wealth of internet trolls can't find any evidence that Obama and Biden did anything at all wrong in the Russian investigations.

It will be interesting to see what a post Trump administration discovers when it starts digging into the current AG's actions

Unmasking' inquiry ordered by Barr finds no wrongdoing by Obama officials – report
Findings seen as defeat for Trump and Barr, who appeared to be fishing for damaging information that could be used against Biden

William Barr ordered John Bash to investigate whether Obama administration officials had mishandled classified intelligence relating to the Russia investigation. Photograph: Brynn Anderson/AP

Tom McCarthy

@TeeMcSee
Wed 14 Oct 2020 14.18 EDT
Last modified on Wed 14 Oct 2020 14.24 EDT


A federal prosecutor handpicked by the attorney general, William Barr, to investigate whether Obama administration officials had mishandled classified intelligence relating to the Russia investigation has wrapped up his work without finding wrongdoing or considering charges, according to the Washington Post.

The conclusion of an investigation by US attorney John Bash into the so-called “unmasking” of names in intelligence reports by Obama officials was seen as a defeat for Donald Trump and Barr, who appeared to be fishing for damaging information that could be used against former vice=president Joe Biden
.
“Unsurprising. What a politically-driven waste of [justice department] resources,” tweeted Sam Vinograd, an adviser to the national security council under Barack Obama.

A second federal investigation launched by Barr into Obama-era investigations of Russian election tampering, in this case led by US attorney John Durham of Connecticut, likewise has failed to bear political fruit before the presidential election.
Durham continues to investigate the origins of investigations into Russian election meddling and Trump campaign contacts with Russian operatives. Trump asserts the Trump-Russia investigation was a political hit job.

But the Russia investigation, led by special counsel Robert Mueller resulted in the indictment of 34 individuals and criminal charges against half a dozen Trump associates, including multiple guilty pleas.

Barr told a group of Republican lawmakers earlier this year that Durham would not file a report – much less any charges – before the presidential election, dashing what appeared to be increasingly desperate hopes inside the Trump administration for a Biden-related scandal.

Officials in the executive branch routinely move to “unmask” names in classified intelligence documents in order to better understand the documents, the Post reported.

The “unmasking” conducted during the Obama administration revealed that former national security adviser Michael Flynn, a key figure in the 2016 Trump campaign, was in the crosshairs of the Russia investigation, which had picked up contacts between Flynn and Russian operatives that Flynn later lied about.

That revelation proved to be politically damaging to Trump. The emergence of Flynn’s deep ties to Russian operatives, which he later admitted falsely denying, led to his resignation as national security adviser and was an early blow for the Trump administration.

Trump at the time asked the then FBI director, James Comey, to “go easy” on Flynn, in a scene that would become a central piece of evidence against Trump in Mueller’s investigation of possible obstruction of justice by the president.

That investigation would in turn fuel demands for Trump’s impeachment, after it was revealed that the US president had pressured the Ukrainian president to generate negative headlines about Biden and his son, Hunter Biden.

Trump was impeached in December 2019, and acquitted by the Senate in early 2020, but the key players in the scheme that led to his impeachment remained active in trying to fabricate a scandal attached to Biden’s son in advance of the election.

'Unmasking' inquiry ordered by Barr finds no wrongdoing by Obama officials – report

Findings seen as defeat for Trump and Barr, who appeared to be fishing for damaging information that could be used against Biden

www.theguardian.com