Veganism

aus_trader said:

Yes, I would punt in a similar way, there's probably a lot of supplements, vitamins and pills involved rather than just the 5 fruit and 2 veg.

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Actually, the largest consumer of supplements is the animal agriculture industry, something like 90% of all vitamin supplements go to the animals we farm.

Yet every vitamin and mineral you need can be found in plant based foods.

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My uncle owns a few dairy farms, and I saw him spreading a white powder over his pasture, I asked if it was fertilizer, turns out it was magnesium, because dairy cows are generally low on magnesium they spread it across the fields.

He even had magnesium injections ready for any cows that collapse during milking.

Now some people say “oh but if you go vegan you might have to take a vitamin supplement”, which if you eat right you don’t need to, but the truth is meat eaters are consuming large amounts of supplements, via the animals they eat.

wayneL said:

You're not appreciating that individual metabolisms vary, VC.

I don't dispute some can function optimally as a veg.

I can too as a trader. As a farrier, I can't.

Additionally, I would like to see the actual diet of those purported vego athletes. I would punt on a very modified form of vegetarianism that relies on food techology.

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Which vitamin or mineral do you think you are missing out on as a vegan?

The only thing I can think you might be missing out on is b12.

Your body can store 2 - 5 years worth of b12, but if you go vegan you will need to make sure you are eating some b12 eventually.

My soy milk has b12 as does the salt reduced vegimite, and sometimes I eat mussels, most multi vitamins have it also.

But again, 90% of b12 supplements go to farm animals, so you might be better off just taking a b12 supplement directly rather than though the broken body of a factory farm victim.

wayneL said:

Additionally, I would like to see the actual diet of those purported vego athletes. I would punt on a very modified form of vegetarianism that relies on food techology.

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Check this guy out,



This guy is vegan body builder doing his weekly meal prep.

One other thing that is a bit weird, pretty much every meat eating gym junky I have ever met (and being ex army I knew alot) drank protein shakes etc daily.

Yet, as soon as some one sees a vegan body builder have a protein shake (even though it’s a plant based protein shake) they freak out and say “see, that vegan body builder supplements protein, therefore veganism doesn’t work”, but when it comes to the meat eater they are like “yeah, that body builder had a protein shake, makes sense, why wouldn’t he”

Value Collector said:

Actually the cereal growers want you to eat meat as well, because they know that if you are eating wheat or corn you might eat 1 bowl for breakfast, but if you eat bacon and eggs, you will eat 10 bowls.

Eg, the chicken and the pigs will eat the equivalent of 10 bowls of cornflakes to make 1 plate of bacon and eggs

So the whole marketing power of the US department of agriculture is dedicated to pushing meat and dairy, because even the crop growers want you eating meat.

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Good point, I didn't think of that. But if the meat, poultry and dairy industry really wanted to have it their way they would have turned the pyramid upside down and recommend people to eat 80-90% meat, poultry and dairy with just a crouton and a tiny salad leaf for garnish

Value Collector said:

Actually, the largest consumer of supplements is the animal agriculture industry, something like 90% of all vitamin supplements go to the animals we farm.

Yet every vitamin and mineral you need can be found in plant based foods.

——
My uncle owns a few dairy farms, and I saw him spreading a white powder over his pasture, I asked if it was fertilizer, turns out it was magnesium, because dairy cows are generally low on magnesium they spread it across the fields.

He even had magnesium injections ready for any cows that collapse during milking.

Now some people say “oh but if you go vegan you might have to take a vitamin supplement”, which if you eat right you don’t need to, but the truth is meat eaters are consuming large amounts of supplements, via the animals they eat.

Click to expand...

I think I heard somewhere that farmers growing plant crops have in some cases used supplements ('fertiliser' I think they often call these supplements).

It's sort of almost true that plants contain all the vitamins and minerals humans need. Some of them are only present in trace amounts and it's very difficult to get enough of all of them in a vegan diet. In a natural vegan diet it is impossible.

It also depends what you mean by 'enough'. Without a lot of artificial processing and the use of artificial cultivars, it is impossible for humans to survive on a vegan diet (that itself is telling!). With artificial processing and cultivars it is possible to survive, but even then it is noticeably suboptimal for the vast majority of people.

Also, every single strict vegan I have ever known has either had obvious health issues or if I have spent several days with them observing everything they eat, they cheat and eat eggs or some other animal product.

The fact that it is just so difficult to do it, and literally impossible to do it naturally, pretty clearly tells you what humans are designed to be eating. The anatomy and physiology make it completely obvious too.

There are guys on the carnivore diet who also claim it has done wonders for them.

Value Collector said:

Check this guy out,



This guy is vegan body builder doing his weekly meal prep.

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Get jacked.
Nothing but kale..... and anabol.

These guys aren't that big, how many calories were the meals (if anyone saw). You have to eat a lot of vegan to offset meat and dairy. I was eating over 6000 calories just to keep up with a training regiment in my youth. And even that wasn't enough. The cost adds up.

Sdajii said:

I think I heard somewhere that farmers growing plant crops have in some cases used supplements ('fertiliser' I think they often call these supplements).

It's sort of almost true that plants contain all the vitamins and minerals humans need. Some of them are only present in trace amounts and it's very difficult to get enough of all of them in a vegan diet. In a natural vegan diet it is impossible.

It also depends what you mean by 'enough'. Without a lot of artificial processing and the use of artificial cultivars, it is impossible for humans to survive on a vegan diet (that itself is telling!). With artificial processing and cultivars it is possible to survive, but even then it is noticeably suboptimal for the vast majority of people.

Also, every single strict vegan I have ever known has either had obvious health issues or if I have spent several days with them observing everything they eat, they cheat and eat eggs or some other animal product.

The fact that it is just so difficult to do it, and literally impossible to do it naturally, pretty clearly tells you what humans are designed to be eating. The anatomy and physiology make it completely obvious too.

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Then there are things like chlormequat (chloride) and Paclobutrazol to increase yield. Or pesticides and other pgrs. Soy can have high concentrations of heavy metals. And often high concentrations of aluminum. If you don't check the source then its more than likely genetically engineered.

If you do grow your own get your dirt tested.
Meat is pumped full of crap as well, but we shouldn't be under the illusion that veggies are not either to get weight, yield or stop pests. And people don't care about how they do it.

moXJO said:

There are guys on the carnivore diet who also claim it has done wonders for them.

Get jacked.
Nothing but kale..... and anabol.

These guys aren't that big, how many calories were the meals (if anyone saw). You have to eat a lot of vegan to offset meat and dairy. I was eating over 6000 calories just to keep up with a training regiment in my youth. And even that wasn't enough. The cost adds up.

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Vegan calories are cheaper than meat in general.

It’s a myth vegan food is more expensive that meat.

Sdajii said:

I think I heard somewhere that farmers growing plant crops have in some cases used supplements ('fertiliser' I think they often call these supplements).

It's sort of almost true that plants contain all the vitamins and minerals humans need. Some of them are only present in trace amounts and it's very difficult to get enough of all of them in a vegan diet. In a natural vegan diet it is impossible.

It also depends what you mean by 'enough'. Without a lot of artificial processing and the use of artificial cultivars, it is impossible for humans to survive on a vegan diet (that itself is telling!). With artificial processing and cultivars it is possible to survive, but even then it is noticeably suboptimal for the vast majority of people.

Also, every single strict vegan I have ever known has either had obvious health issues or if I have spent several days with them observing everything they eat, they cheat and eat eggs or some other animal product.

The fact that it is just so difficult to do it, and literally impossible to do it naturally, pretty clearly tells you what humans are designed to be eating. The anatomy and physiology make it completely obvious too.

Click to expand...

A meat based diet consumes a lot more fertilizer than a plant based one, because you have to fertilize all the plants the animals are eating, eg to get 1000 calories of chicken meat you have to feed the chicken 10,000 calories of plants such as corn.

Which vitamins and minerals can’t you get from plants? I mean the animals you eat are getting them from plants.

Mate I know lots of vegans, and I haven’t seen any health issues, but ofcourse you have to be eating enough food, some people that have preexisitng eating disorders gravitate to restrictive diets, that are damaging, I am not saying go on a restrict diet, I am saying eat all the carbs, fat, protein, vitamins and minerals you need, just get them from plants.

aus_trader said:

But if the meat, poultry and dairy industry really wanted to have it their way they would have turned the pyramid upside down and recommend people to eat 80-90% meat, poultry and dairy with just a crouton and a tiny salad leaf for garnish

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They would if they could,

Value Collector said:

A meat based diet consumes a lot more fertilizer than a plant based one, because you have to fertilize all the plants the animals are eating, eg to get 1000 calories of chicken meat you have to feed the chicken 10,000 calories of plants such as corn.

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This is not entirely true. Vegan propaganda bases its claims most commonly on efficient plant farming examples vs inefficient beef. It doesn't even make the attempt at comparing the average values of plant foods to the average of animal-based foods.

I could make a similarly misleading argument by saying seafood uses no fertiliser but virtually all plant crops do, so meat uses less. In reality, this argument is more or less moot either way, because there are plenty of examples of high and low values in both plant and animal foods.

Oh, and if you want to be obtuse and use aquaculture as an argument, it should be obvious that's not what I was talking about.

Which vitamins and minerals can’t you get from plants? I mean the animals you eat are getting them from plants.

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Some animals can manufacture products we can't. For example, cows can eat grass, digest cellulose, turn it into protein, and we can eat that. We can not digest cellulose. We would die of malnutrition on the natural diet of literally any naturally vegan animal. We can survive indefinitely on nothing but beef, but we will very quickly die on a diet of grass. Yes, there are at least trace amounts of all essential nutrients in plants, but we can not get enough of some of them from a natural vegan diet without overloading on others. Only by processing and using artificial cultivars is it possible for a human to even survive on a vegan diet. Even using very carefully structured vegan diets consisting of processed and cultivar foods, few people can remain healthy long term on them because they end up with deficiencies. Common deficiencies are iron, calcium, iodine, zinc, vitamin D and some sources say vitamin B12 (although I'm dubious about that one).

Mate I know lots of vegans, and I haven’t seen any health issues, but ofcourse you have to be eating enough food, some people that have preexisitng eating disorders gravitate to restrictive diets, that are damaging, I am not saying go on a restrict diet, I am saying eat all the carbs, fat, protein, vitamins and minerals you need, just get them from plants.

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Every genuine vegan living in a western country that I have ever known has had health issues within a few years, most of them within months, and most people I have know who have claimed to be vegans have cheated or not done it long term. The health issues may not be extreme, but vegans tend to be low energy, low vitality, get sick often, seem pale an anemic, etc, and eventually most of them get more extreme health issues or start including eggs etc in their diet. If you really scrutinise most vegans though, they do cheat. This group is very prone to virtue signaling. That's the primary reason many of them do it. I also see a lot of them make various excuses for their health issues until eventually they are forced to accept that they need to include animal products, and then the problems disappear.

Sdajii made it clear about the point I was making about a balanced diet. I have no objections or problems with people becoming vegan but it's not healthy long-term and I do care that people stay healthy and try to avoid extreme diets.

Some of these YouTubers are not really providing a good message to the general public either. It may be possible to live on a vegan diet if every meal is really well thought out and include so many ingredients and quantities to fill the nutritional gaps. But most people are so busy these days that it would be nearly impossible to put so much emphasis on meal preparation etc to prevent deficiencies.

Once again some people can do it (go 100% vegan) and all I can say is I totally respect their choice and good luck with it but it's not for me. I have tried extremes which weren't good for me and eventually found my balance.

aus_trader said:

Sdajii made it clear about the point I was making about a balanced diet. I have no objections or problems with people becoming vegan but it's not healthy long-term and I do care that people stay healthy and try to avoid extreme diets.

Some of these YouTubers are not really providing a good message to the general public either. It may be possible to live on a vegan diet if every meal is really well thought out and include so many ingredients and quantities to fill the nutritional gaps. But most people are so busy these days that it would be nearly impossible to put so much emphasis on meal preparation etc to prevent deficiencies.

Once again some people can do it (go 100% vegan) and all I can say is I totally respect their choice and good luck with it but it's not for me. I have tried extremes which weren't good for me and eventually found my balance.

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This is a good summary.

However you look at it, meat is extremely nutritious. I certainly don't advocate it, but you can live on nothing but meat, and many people who try it do well on that diet. A far, far higher percentage than vegans. That gives you an idea of how well balanced and broad spectrum it is in terms of nutritional value.

Plants do have all the nutrients we need, but it is extremely difficult to get them all in the right balance and in sufficient quantities, and literally impossible in a natural way. Again, this speaks volumes.

The only way to have a healthy diet without going to absolutely silly and unnatural extremes is to include some animal products. It doesn't necessarily need to be a lot. Even a relatively small amount will give you a heap of nutrition which will fill in the gaps which a plant-based diet virtually always misses.

Going vegan is quite extreme and fanatical. All you need to do is include a small amount of meat and you are so much better off. It's silly to cut out 100% and give yourself a heap of problems without eliminating your impact on the environment or animals anyway (plant-based agriculture still harms animals, so a vegan diet isn't 100% animal cruelty free anyway) when cutting out 80% compared to average will give you so much reduction in health issues and necessity of obsessing over details compared to a vegan diet. Or even just eat a tiny amount of meat or eggs and you're going to fill in some nutritional gaps which almost all vegans have. You are an animal too, and being cruel to yourself is a form of animal cruelty. If you're not going to kill yourself, you should treat yourself properly and not be fanatical and self destructive.

Sdajii said:

This is not entirely true. Vegan propaganda bases its claims most commonly on efficient plant farming examples vs inefficient beef. It doesn't even make the attempt at comparing the average values of plant foods to the average of animal-based foods.

I could make a similarly misleading argument by saying seafood uses no fertiliser but virtually all plant crops do, so meat uses less. In reality, this argument is more or less moot either way, because there are plenty of examples of high and low values in both plant and animal foods.

Oh, and if you want to be obtuse and use aquaculture as an argument, it should be obvious that's not what I was talking about.



Some animals can manufacture products we can't. For example, cows can eat grass, digest cellulose, turn it into protein, and we can eat that. We can not digest cellulose. We would die of malnutrition on the natural diet of literally any naturally vegan animal. We can survive indefinitely on nothing but beef, but we will very quickly die on a diet of grass. Yes, there are at least trace amounts of all essential nutrients in plants, but we can not get enough of some of them from a natural vegan diet without overloading on others. Only by processing and using artificial cultivars is it possible for a human to even survive on a vegan diet. Even using very carefully structured vegan diets consisting of processed and cultivar foods, few people can remain healthy long term on them because they end up with deficiencies. Common deficiencies are iron, calcium, iodine, zinc, vitamin D and some sources say vitamin B12 (although I'm dubious about that one).



Every genuine vegan living in a western country that I have ever known has had health issues within a few years, most of them within months, and most people I have know who have claimed to be vegans have cheated or not done it long term. The health issues may not be extreme, but vegans tend to be low energy, low vitality, get sick often, seem pale an anemic, etc, and eventually most of them get more extreme health issues or start including eggs etc in their diet. If you really scrutinise most vegans though, they do cheat. This group is very prone to virtue signaling. That's the primary reason many of them do it. I also see a lot of them make various excuses for their health issues until eventually they are forced to accept that they need to include animal products, and then the problems disappear.

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Which vitamin can’t you get through a vegan diet though?

I think eating plants is far less extreme than slaughtering animals,

And going vegan isn’t extreme as long as you are hitting all your macros, eg carbs, fats, protein, vitamins and minerals.

You don’t have to cut any macros out of your diet, you just switch courses, so it’s not at all extreme

Value Collector said:

Which vitamin can’t you get through a vegan diet though?

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Hard to get adequate B12, long chain omega 3, iron, zinc.
To be fair plenty of omnivores don't eat well enough either and miss folate, long chain omega 3 and even vitamin C.

The reason vegan is extreme is the amount of effort you need to go to , if you don't put in enough effort you end up looking like one of those pale looking weaklings that hang around health stores.

Knobby22 said:

Hard to get adequate B12, long chain omega 3, iron, zinc.
To be fair plenty of omnivores don't eat well enough either and miss folate, long chain omega 3 and even vitamin C.

The reason vegan is extreme is the amount of effort you need to go to , if you don't put in enough effort you end up looking like one of those pale looking weaklings that hang around health stores.

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Yep, there is the issue of opportunity. I would find it impossible to be a healthy Vegan, even if it were technically possible, with my current lifestyle.

If you are super careful and plan really well and are extremely disciplined and used processed concentrates of nutrients from plant-based sources, then yes, it is possible to be healthy on a vegan diet. In practise this is beyond the ability of most people both in terms of understanding nutrition and in terms of cost and availability. For me it would literally be impossible. Actually, for me eating healthy is sometimes a challenge even without following any dietary rules. I am rarely in a country for more than two months at a time, very often in unfamiliar cities, and sourcing appropriate vegan food would not be an option most of the time, especially when I am in small towns and villages in south east Asia. It would be very much impossible.

Yes, you can hit all your macronutrient targets on a vegan diet. To do so, most people need to use processed options, but yes, it's possible. In practice, most vegans don't properly do it (of course, many non vegans don't either, but most of them are not making any attempt at having a good diet). Of the people who make attempts at a healthy vegan diet, micronutrients are commonly the problem. Micronutrient deficiencies take longer to show up than macronutrient deficiencies. Many people who switch to a vegan diet feel better for it in the short term because they are getting sufficient quantities of macronutrients and they are cutting out a lot of the garbage foods they used to eat. Of course that will make you feel better for a few weeks, but it's not because they're cutting out meat, it's because they're cutting out all the crap. A few months later and the micronutrient issues gradually start to hit, but because initially they felt better on the vegan diet, they don't associate the problems with it and they assume something else must be wrong with them.

Even a small amount of meat fills in a lot of the nutritional gaps you find in all but the most extremely well planned vegan diets, so cutting out 100% of animal products really is quite silly and extreme.

To show how extreme and warped the mindset of veganism is, we can look at things like people killing their pets such as cats and even their own babies because they are warped into believing veganism is always possible, or even natural. Veganism for humans is absolutely positively not natural. It is absolutely positively not even possible in a natural or semi natural scenario. It is only possible with the use of modern processing and cultivars. To be vegan is very unnatural, which is part of why it is so difficult and why there are few true vegans and why the vast majority of true long term vegans have health problems.

When few people are capable of it and almost all of the people doing it struggle and find it a challenge, you really do need to accept that putting yourself through such an ordeal is very much extreme. It is blatant denial of reality to say otherwise. It literally is to go against the nature of your own biology. People literally kill themselves because of the myth that it is natural or most healthy, in some cases believing right up until the point of their own death or even after the death of their own child that it was not the cause of the death. If that doesn't count as extreme it will do until something extreme comes along.

We have had a lot of discussion on this topic and with all the information that VC has provided us it is very clear that it's possible to survive as a vegan, so YES it is technically viable. So VC if you are loving it living as a Vegan, congrats !

However we have to be careful when influencing the general public because without knowing their background and personal circumstances it's not prudent to encourage them to go vegan. For example a person who may have to work long hours in a labour intensive job or do multiple jobs just to make ends meet may not have the time to organise meals that have all the nutrients they need if they cut out all animal derived products from their diet. Similar can be said for a percentage of Australians with Iron deficiency of which a large proportion is women. On the other hand a person with a lifestyle that allows them a lot of time to plan each of their meals or if their way of living is not physically demanding (a yogic lifestyle for example), then the vegan option may be suitable.