Veganism

[wayneL]

I suspect you ideas are more about personal preference than physiological requirement.

I supect if I said that arterial blood was more oxygen rich than venous blood, you'd disagree.

 

[rederob]

Please read SirRumpole's article above as it highlights the lack of certain amino acids in plant based proteins. So it's not some dreamt up argument why there is a lack of energy, it's based on facts.

All the largest land animals are herbivores.
So the idea that meat is needed in a diet for strength and energy is false.
Our close relatives in the tree of life are chimpanzees and gorillas, neither of whom are carnivores.
I eat meat, so I am not a rabid vegan or vegetarian and have no axe to grind here.
But the real point to what we eat is ensuring it is a balanced diet in terms of what our bodies need. The fact that most vegetables are not complete wrt amino acids does not mean that a balanced vegetarian is deficient wrt amino acids:that's the purpose of a balanced diet!

 

[aus_trader]

Our close relatives in the tree of life are chimpanzees and gorillas, neither of whom are carnivores.

Agree. They both eat mostly a plant based diet and occasionally they supplement it with meat which they are good at hunting down. Specially great apes such as gorillas and baboons are skilled hunters and generally hunt in packs.

 

[noirua]

Vegans should not fly in aircraft, not drive cars, or travel in petrol and diesel vehicles. They should make their own clothes and shoes so machinery is not involved. They should not use electricity or gas and only energy made themselves from green resources.
They should grow most of their own food and never buy anything packaged in anyway.

Many Vegans are hypocrites who arrive at a rally in cars. Opening food from packages. Pressing away on their hand held devices made from plastic. Wearing watches and jewellery that expended energy to make.

One Vegan I know never goes to a hairdressers and even though her torch, watch and radio have some plastics in them they are wind up types so no electricity or batteries required. As close to an absolute Vegan as possible.

Some Vegans are of the trendy type who contribute to green issues but in fact not personally Vegan or green natured at all.

 

[StockyGuy]

Vegans should not fly in aircraft, not drive cars, or travel in petrol and diesel vehicles. They should make their own clothes and shoes so machinery is not involved. They should not use electricity or gas and only energy made themselves from green resources.
They should grow most of their own food and never buy anything packaged in anyway.

Many Vegans are hypocrites who arrive at a rally in cars. Opening food from packages. Pressing away on their hand held devices made from plastic. Wearing watches and jewellery that expended energy to make.

One Vegan I know never goes to a hairdressers and even though her torch, watch and radio have some plastics in them they are wind up types so no electricity or batteries required. As close to an absolute Vegan as possible.

Some Vegans are of the trendy type who contribute to green issues but in fact not personally Vegan or green natured at all.

Not all vegans are lefties. Veganism is not the same as environmentalism. You are conflating the two things.

Vegans don't have to live like Amish.

The good stuff of the modern world was vastly contributed to by vegetarians. Vegan as a term was artificially created in 1944. Many of the famous vegetarians from Western civilisation would have been essentially vegan. Records can be incomplete. If they weren't quite there due to using dairy or something it was more understandable as they did not have all the fortified supermarket stuff available we do.

The instinct to vegetarianism is quite pronounced among the great STEM minds - da Vinci, Tesla, Edison, Pythagoras, Einstein, Newton. These are just the household name types. I am not claiming they were all perfect lifelong vegetarians either so no need to argue the individual biographies.

The link between a high intellectualism and a vegetarian instinct is so pronounced it borders on being a typical characteristic of extreme genius.

 

[Knobby22]

Not all vegans are lefties. Veganism is not the same as environmentalism. You are conflating the two things.

Vegans don't have to live like Amish.

The good stuff of the modern world was vastly contributed to by vegetarians. Vegan as a term was artificially created in 1944. Many of the famous vegetarians from Western civilisation would have been essentially vegan. Records can be incomplete. If they weren't quite there due to using dairy or something it was more understandable as they did not have all the fortified supermarket stuff available we do.

The instinct to vegetarianism is quite pronounced among the great STEM minds - da Vinci, Tesla, Edison, Pythagoras, Einstein, Newton. These are just the household name types. I am not claiming they were all perfect lifelong vegetarians either so no need to argue the individual biographies.

The link between a high intellectualism and a vegetarian instinct is so pronounced it borders on being a typical characteristic of extreme genius.

I saw a stat. In the USA, 2 out of 3 vegans are lefties, though I reckon it would be a higher percentage in Australia.

 

[lindsayf]

Logic...
Gorillas are big. Gorillas are vegetarians.
Therefore humans can be big healthy Vegetarians.
But just keep in mind that since humans diverged from gorillas about 10 million years ago that our digestive systems are now completely different.

 

[rederob]

I suspect if I said that arterial blood was more oxygen rich than venous blood, you'd disagree.

I am not like you, and prefer to use evidence to support what I say.
So, like many of your ideas, this one was legless.

 

[wayneL]

I am not like you, and prefer to use evidence to support what I say.
So, like many of your ideas, this one was legless.

You are an idiot Robbie. Just naff off.

 

[StockyGuy]

I saw a stat. In the USA, 2 out of 3 vegans are lefties, though I reckon it would be a higher percentage in Australia.

That sounds fair. But if one third or one fourth aren't it's a pretty big minority!

I was reacting to the vegans shouldn't use planes and plastics stuff. MANY (most?) extreme environmentalists are NOT vegan, or even vegetarian.

Christianity has a small, but consistent, thread of vegetarianism. It is understood to be the pre-flood diet. People should not imagine all vegans believe in raising kids without gender and having no border protection.

Just generalising, but I doubt many of the vegan bodybuilders are lefty greenies.

It's a dietary choice. There's some, limited, correlation to other view and positions, but nowhere near enough to say someone who eats no animal products is a hypocrite because they are typing on a plastic keyboard!

 

[Value Collector]

No, you must have missed the part where I told you I know my nutrition and metabolism. It is a case if how individuals process different foods... and to repeat once again, the role of chronic inflammation... Many plants are inflammatory to humans, more so some than others.

Here's a test. Try converting a carnivore, say a dog, to veganism. Their health suffers.

Humans aren’t carnivores, we are frugivores.

Try getting a human to eat like a dog does, eg digging up 3 day old bones or raw chicken and eating them, and I think you will see their health deteriorate.

Also, I don’t think many dogs are dying of high cholesterol induced heart attacks, where as it’s the biggest killer of humans, so yeah it doesn’t seem like our bodies cope to well with a carnivore diet.

 

[Value Collector]

A big assumption here, who says the default for humans is to go back to grazing ?

If you believe in evolution and human history, then we became the most advanced species of Earth partly because the apes who broke away from their cousins to become humans over millennia learnt to build tools to hunt and to bring down prey that were much bigger than them. So all along since the caveman days we have been filling the nutritional gaps in our diet (which is mainly plant based as we are omnivores) with hunted food.

You have it a bit backwards there, given that heart attacks caused by high cholesterol and saturated fats are our biggest killer, it wouldn’t seem our bodies as so evolved as to be ready to consume meat regularly, lions for example don’t het high cholesterol.

We had to evolve higher intelligence and be able to use tools before we started hunting and cooking meat.

That shows we were already well developed before meat became a large part of our diet, it wasn’t the cause.

Just because ancient man ate meat out of necessity for shorter survival in our recent past, doesn’t make it the best choice when you have other options.

 

[aus_trader]

You have it a bit backwards there, given that heart attacks caused by high cholesterol and saturated fats are our biggest killer, it wouldn’t seem our bodies as so evolved as to be ready to consume meat regularly, lions for example don’t het high cholesterol.

We had to evolve higher intelligence and be able to use tools before we started hunting and cooking meat.

That shows we were already well developed before meat became a large part of our diet, it wasn’t the cause.

Just because ancient man ate meat out of necessity for shorter survival in our recent past, doesn’t make it the best choice when you have other options.

Agree that meat and animal based products should not form a large part of our diet, that wouldn't be healthy. But to have to completely eliminate it is also unnecessary. Did you see the food pyramid? animal derived products make a tiny part of the apex of the pyramid. The rest is all plant based.

 

[wayneL]

Humans aren’t carnivores, we are frugivores.

Try getting a human to eat like a dog does, eg digging up 3 day old bones or raw chicken and eating them, and I think you will see their health deteriorate.

Also, I don’t think many dogs are dying of high cholesterol induced heart attacks, where as it’s the biggest killer of humans, so yeah it doesn’t seem like our bodies cope to well with a carnivore diet.

Ughhh! I wasn't suggesting we are pure carnivores or should eat like a dog ferchrissake VC. Clearly we are not. And the above pathologies are more complicated than eating meat, that's a whole 'nuther bowl of wax.

Additionally, I used all the same arguments as you guys to justify when I was a vego. I don't even like meat all that much, I could happily still be vego.

But... there is no question that animal protein, and it doesn't have to be all that often, once or twice a week, makes a huge difference to "me" when I am working physically.

I am 57 now and all my bloods are perfect.

 

[Value Collector]

Agree that meat and animal based products should not form a large part of our diet, that wouldn't be healthy. But to have to completely eliminate it is also unnecessary. Did you see the food pyramid? animal derived products make a tiny part of the apex of the pyramid. The rest is all plant based.

You should research how much that food pyramid has been influenced by meat and dairy industry.

There has literarily been legal action from dairy and meat industry when some health organizations have tried to alter it, for years there was intense pressure from the us department of agriculture to prevent any product other than meat and dairy from being labeled protein.

The fact that every one associates meat and dairy as the only protein sources is also a result of marketing, not fact.

 

[Value Collector]

Controversy over “food pyramid”.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8375951/

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/09/invented-food-pyramid/

 

[wayneL]

You're not appreciating that individual metabolisms vary, VC.

I don't dispute some can function optimally as a veg.

I can too as a trader. As a farrier, I can't.

Additionally, I would like to see the actual diet of those purported vego athletes. I would punt on a very modified form of vegetarianism that relies on food techology.

 

[aus_trader]

You should research how much that food pyramid has been influenced by meat and dairy industry.

There has literarily been legal action from dairy and meat industry when some health organizations have tried to alter it, for years there was intense pressure from the us department of agriculture to prevent any product other than meat and dairy from being labeled protein.

The fact that every one associates meat and dairy as the only protein sources is also a result of marketing, not fact.

Well that's like anything else in the world, all the market participants want their share of the pie (in this case pyramid). Dairy and animal farmers/growers will want some representation as to why their product is beneficial, wheat growers will want to cram as much cereal and bread products in there and veg/fruit growers will push their agenda.

But this kind of balanced approach works for me. As mentioned by wayneL earlier I am also a very low consumer of animal products like meat/chicken/fish etc. Maybe couple of times a week even then in a meal full of veg/pasta/rice etc. I am certainly not into eating meat, meat and more meat so I don't need to "Have my Steak and eat it too", that might be more to do with cake

 

[aus_trader]

You're not appreciating that individual metabolisms vary, VC.

I don't dispute some can function optimally as a veg.

I can too as a trader. As a farrier, I can't.

Additionally, I would like to see the actual diet of those purported vego athletes. I would punt on a very modified form of vegetarianism that relies on food techology.

Yes, I would punt in a similar way, there's probably a lot of supplements, vitamins and pills involved rather than just the 5 fruit and 2 veg.

 

[Value Collector]

Well that's like anything else in the world, all the market participants want their share of the pie (in this case pyramid). Dairy and animal farmers/growers will want some representation as to why their product is beneficial, wheat growers will want to cram as much cereal and bread products in there and veg/fruit growers will push their agenda.

Actually the cereal growers want you to eat meat as well, because they know that if you are eating wheat or corn you might eat 1 bowl for breakfast, but if you eat bacon and eggs, you will eat 10 bowls.

Eg, the chicken and the pigs will eat the equivalent of 10 bowls of cornflakes to make 1 plate of bacon and eggs

So the whole marketing power of the US department of agriculture is dedicated to pushing meat and dairy, because even the crop growers want you eating meat.