Trump Derangement Syndrome

luutzu · 9 August 2018

Sdajii said:
It doesn't count the number of jobs. It counts the percentage of people with zero jobs. Someone with 3 jobs counts the same as someone with 1 job.

I'd be embarrassed to ask a question like this in the context of looking at unemployment figures. If out of 100 people 5 don't have jobs at all and are classed as unemployed, and 95 do have jobs and count as employed, it doesn't matter whether the 95 have 95 jobs between them or 950. In no system of calculating unemployment does that change anything.

You're nicely displaying the title theme phenomenon.

By all means, look into it as deeply as you like. Unemployment is down no matter how you look at it. You don't boost the economy and GDP and average wage and put tariffs on foreign goods encouraging local manufacturing causing more local manufacturing thus more local jobs, etc etc, without creating more jobs. It's not arguable in any sane sense, it's not marginal, it's big and it's clear and it's obvious and you're clearly suffering from TDS. Apparently it just hurts you to acknowledge that Trump is succeeding in something, and you'll twist things to whatever extent necessary to avoid seeing the reality you don't like. Absolutely classic TDS.

Incredible that TDS has people so desperate that even with such clear and extreme improvement to unemployment, they will try to pretend it doesn't exist, and accuse others of being the ones trying to play with the facts!

A person is never embarrassed to ask stupid questions if they're intelligent, or confident that they are intelligent

So unemployment figures over the years don't paint the same picture then?

Say an Average Joe was "employed" some decades a go in one job that afford a roof, food on the table, health insurance, a decent car, maybe a holiday now and then.

Average Joe Jr. is also "employed"... in two jobs. Both of which he need to get to else "no soup for you."

I guess the lesson is to never look at one metric, but multiple of them to have any hope of understanding the world.

Tisme · 9 August 2018

Giving Warren the rounds of the table:
https://tinyurl.com/ychxblmo

Tisme · 9 August 2018

luutzu said:
A person is never embarrassed to ask stupid questions if they're intelligent, or confident that they are intelligent

So unemployment figures over the years don't paint the same picture then?

Say an Average Joe was "employed" some decades a go in one job that afford a roof, food on the table, health insurance, a decent car, maybe a holiday now and then.

Average Joe Jr. is also "employed"... in two jobs. Both of which he need to get to else "no soup for you."

I guess the lesson is to never look at one metric, but multiple of them to have any hope of understanding the world.

https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

SirRumpole · 9 August 2018

Tisme said:
https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

Who is counted as employed?
People are considered employed if they did any work at all for pay or profit during the survey reference week. This includes all part-time and temporary work, as well as regular full-time, year-round employment. Individuals also are counted as employed if they have a job at which they did not work during the survey week, whether they were paid or not, because they were:

On vacation

Ill

Experiencing child care problems

On maternity or paternity leave

Taking care of some other family or personal obligation

Involved in a labor dispute

Prevented from working by bad weather

So if you mowed the neighbors lawn once a week and got paid for it, you are employed even if you did bugger all for the rest of the time.

As I said, damn lies and statistics.

Tisme · 9 August 2018

SirRumpole said:
So if you mowed the neighbors lawn once a week and got paid for it, you are employed even if you did bugger all for the rest of the time.

As I said, damn lies and statistics.

Perhaps, but it's the same goal post as Trumps predecessors used so as a comparison it's as useful as it can be.

Current stats:

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.toc.htm

luutzu · 9 August 2018

Tisme said:
Giving Warren the rounds of the table:
https://tinyurl.com/ychxblmo

They just fired 40 staff at some financial market watchdog. Why would the financial market needs any watching when it's going so well?

Mnuchin is planning to help "mom and pop" private "pass-through" corporation being able to permanently benefit from tax cuts. That will cost the Treasury some $495B over ten years. He meant, save average mums and dads about half a trillion dollars.

Just adding the headline figures so far... there's the $1.5T tax cut; the planned $100B redefinition of what is a real capital gain... and now this small gift.

Wow Trump, you're supposed to drain the swamp, not the Treasury.

Who's going to pay for all these? Oh yea, "China", the EU, those dam Canadians and Mexicans. How will they pay you ask? By getting American consumers to pay more for foreign imports.

Oh wait, it's not completely drained. It's just shifted. All for me, nothing for you lazy no good peasants.

Get another job you bum.

Sdajii · 11 August 2018

SirRumpole said:
If you have never heard or don't understand the phrase "lies, damn lies and statistics", then you are the one playing with "facts".

I'm well familiar with the saying. It is easy to fool stupid people with cleverly represented statistics. That's what the saying means.

It is also a flimsy excuse for people like yourself to use when they want to avoid recognising even the simplest mathematical realities. Again, a lovely example of TDS.

Smurf1976 · 12 August 2018

If this is true then yes, Trump most certainly is deranged and is a danger to humanity.

Nothing further can be said really other than that a boycott of US products in which this may end up would be very wise. If it's true that is (I can't verify it one way or the other).

https://archpaper.com/2018/08/epa-asbestos-manufacturing/

Asbestos is banned in:

Algeria, Czech Republic, Iceland, Malta, Serbia, Argentina, Denmark, Ireland, Mozambique, Australia, Egypt, Israel, Netherlands, Slovakia, Austria, Estonia, Italy, New Caledonia, Slovenia, Bahrain, Finland, Japan, Norway, South Africa, Belgium, France, Jordan, Oman, Spain, Brunei, Gabon, South Korea, Poland, Sweden, Bulgaria, Germany, Kuwait, Portugal, Switzerland, Chile, Greece, Latvia, Qatar, Turkey, Croatia, Honduras, Lithuania, Romania, United Kingdom, Cyprus, Hungary, Luxembourg, Saudi Arabia, Uruguay and others but not to worry king clown Trump thinks it's all a big conspiracy and it's perfectly safe.

Yeah right.....

SirRumpole · 12 August 2018

Smurf1976 said:
If this is true then yes, Trump most certainly is deranged and is a danger to humanity.

Nothing further can be said really other than that a boycott of US products in which this may end up would be very wise. If it's true that is (I can't verify it one way or the other).

https://archpaper.com/2018/08/epa-asbestos-manufacturing/

Asbestos is banned in:

Algeria, Czech Republic, Iceland, Malta, Serbia, Argentina, Denmark, Ireland, Mozambique, Australia, Egypt, Israel, Netherlands, Slovakia, Austria, Estonia, Italy, New Caledonia, Slovenia, Bahrain, Finland, Japan, Norway, South Africa, Belgium, France, Jordan, Oman, Spain, Brunei, Gabon, South Korea, Poland, Sweden, Bulgaria, Germany, Kuwait, Portugal, Switzerland, Chile, Greece, Latvia, Qatar, Turkey, Croatia, Honduras, Lithuania, Romania, United Kingdom, Cyprus, Hungary, Luxembourg Saudi Arabia, Uruguay and others but not to worry king clown Trump thinks it's all a big conspiracy and it's perfectly safe.

Yeah right.....

Looks like it could be true.

http://digg.com/2018/epa-asbestos-trump

Russian connection again ?

SirRumpole · 12 August 2018

He'll probably want to bring back lead in petrol too.

Smurf1976 · 12 August 2018

SirRumpole said:
He'll probably want to bring back lead in petrol too.

And anything else that's going to take decades to fix.

As for the Russians, well this is all just getting too damn blatant isn't it?

At what point does someone join the dots and accept that the person seen heading into the bush carrying a drum of kerosene in one hand and a cigarette lighter in the other and the inferno which got going half an hour later and ultimately wiped out the town are almost certainly connected?

Trump's getting just as blatant really. Poison your own people if it keeps someone in Russia happy. Incredible.

Tisme · 13 August 2018

I remember being on an excursion at the James Hardie factory in Welshpool and the enclosed place was a fog of cement and floaties. I was not surprised when workers started to be identified with lung failures.

I'm not all that convinced that minor or sporadic exposure to fines from cutting fibro, nor removing linoleum, handling vinyl cladding, etc is as dangerous as made out to be.

IFocus · 13 August 2018

More "Derangement" from the fake news mob,

"But the differences from that era appear more profound to him. Bernstein explained: “This is worse than Watergate in the sense that the system worked in Watergate and it’s not apparent yet that the system is working in the current situation. No president has done anything like Trump to characterise the American press and its exercise of the first amendment as the enemy of the people, a phrase associated with the greatest despots of the 20th century.”"

Smurf1976 · 13 August 2018

Tisme said:
I'm not all that convinced that minor or sporadic exposure to fines from cutting fibro, nor removing linoleum, handling vinyl cladding, etc is as dangerous as made out to be.

It’s a dose versus response thing. One exposure is very unlikely to kill you, a hundred is more likely, but there’s no “hard” limit and no known safe level.

Given that the danger is known and alternatives exist I see no reason to continue using the stuff. If there were no alternatives then we’d have no choice but there alternatives which are good enough in practice so there’s just no need to use it.

Disclosures:

1. I know three people who have suffered ill health, one fatal, due to asbestos so there’s a personal aspect to the issue.

2. I have formal training in relation to it, have dealt with plenty of it, etc. I’m not living in fear of the stuff but everything I know on the subject tells me it’s a hazard the exposure to which should be minimised.

Just about everyone has had some exposure somewhere just through living but the less you get, the less likely you are to suffer consequences. Suffice to say I have some fairly firm thoughts as to where Trump can shove his asbestos.

The issue has for me been the deciding factor when it comes to Trump. Other actions could be rationalised or dismissed as trivial or purely ideological but this one is truly ridiculous and oh so wrong in so many ways. From the danger itself through to blatantly controlling the actions of government departments which ought to be beyond short term politics through to yet another case where Russia is involved. It is simply wrong in every possible way that this is occurring.

Tisme · 14 August 2018

Tisme · 14 August 2018

Smurf1976 said:
It’s a dose versus response thing. One exposure is very unlikely to kill you, a hundred is more likely, but there’s no “hard” limit and no known safe level.

Given that the danger is known and alternatives exist I see no reason to continue using the stuff. If there were no alternatives then we’d have no choice but there alternatives which are good enough in practice so there’s just no need to use it.

Disclosures:

1. I know three people who have suffered ill health, one fatal, due to asbestos so there’s a personal aspect to the issue.

2. I have formal training in relation to it, have dealt with plenty of it, etc. I’m not living in fear of the stuff but everything I know on the subject tells me it’s a hazard the exposure to which should be minimised.

Just about everyone has had some exposure somewhere just through living but the less you get, the less likely you are to suffer consequences. Suffice to say I have some fairly firm thoughts as to where Trump can shove his asbestos.

The issue has for me been the deciding factor when it comes to Trump. Other actions could be rationalised or dismissed as trivial or purely ideological but this one is truly ridiculous and oh so wrong in so many ways. From the danger itself through to blatantly controlling the actions of government departments which ought to be beyond short term politics through to yet another case where Russia is involved. It is simply wrong in every possible way that this is occurring.

A refurb project in Brisbane has found asbestos in the mastic used to mate and seal aircond ductwork. Also the new "Tower of Power" executive building was found to have asbestos products. Cars from China had to be recalled because of asbestos products.

When you look at all the various products, it should be considered if the whole population has been exposed, or if it's more confined to overt exposure like super six fence panels, fibro boards, manufacture, welding gloves, etc.

short list:

Carpet underlay
Cement floors
Hot water pipes
Fences
Sheds
Under wall and floor tiles
Under vinyl or linoleum
Ceiling panels
Internal Walls
Eaves
Pipe insulation
Paint
Roof shingles
Brake shoes
Disc pads
Elevator brakes
Plaster patching compound
Imitation brick cladding
Fire proofing
Sound proofing
Insulation
Old ironing board covers

Smurf1976 · 14 August 2018

Tisme said:
When you look at all the various products, it should be considered if the whole population has been exposed, or if it's more confined to overt exposure like super six fence panels, fibro boards, manufacture, welding gloves, etc.

The air monitoring I've seen leaves me 100% convinced that all people who have ever visited a city have been exposed. That's you, me, just about everyone. Reason = there's so much of the stuff around that the background level in the air in cities is measurable.

I'm not in fear and there's no rational reason for most people to be but in the context of Trump's actions it's just plain madness in my view. Just because there's some already out there, and many $ millions are being spent to deal with it, doesn't mean we should add more indeed the reverse is true.

By the same logic just because someone's 20kg overweight doesn't mean they should start eating pies and chips every day. Rather, they'd be wise to eat healthily and slow but surely get rid of the excess weight. Same with asbestos - stop putting it in, keep taking it out when works are done etc, and eventually we'll be rid of the hazard. In 2018 there's no necessary reason to be using asbestos in all but an extremely small number of applications in the chemical industry and so we shouldn't be using it. It doesn't need to be in building products that's for sure.

It just makes me angry to see such a truly ridiculous thing being done. Going back to using something we know beyond all doubt is seriously harmful.

By that logic we'll be back to having people smoking cigarettes inside office buildings by this time next year and we'll be back to chimneys belching clouds of fumes into the sky as well. May as well tell construction workers that hard hats and ear muffs won't be used anymore and remove vehicle safety standards while we're at it.

I see the appeal of retro things when it comes to architecture, books, films, music and so on but not when it comes to things like keeping people reasonably safe.

Junior · 14 August 2018

Smurf1976 said:
The air monitoring I've seen leaves me 100% convinced that all people who have ever visited a city have been exposed. That's you, me, just about everyone. Reason = there's so much of the stuff around that the background level in the air in cities is measurable.

I'm not in fear and there's no rational reason for most people to be but in the context of Trump's actions it's just plain madness in my view. Just because there's some already out there, and many $ millions are being spent to deal with it, doesn't mean we should add more indeed the reverse is true.

By the same logic just because someone's 20kg overweight doesn't mean they should start eating pies and chips every day. Rather, they'd be wise to eat healthily and slow but surely get rid of the excess weight. Same with asbestos - stop putting it in, keep taking it out when works are done etc, and eventually we'll be rid of the hazard. In 2018 there's no necessary reason to be using asbestos in all but an extremely small number of applications in the chemical industry and so we shouldn't be using it. It doesn't need to be in building products that's for sure.

It just makes me angry to see such a truly ridiculous thing being done. Going back to using something we know beyond all doubt is seriously harmful.

By that logic we'll be back to having people smoking cigarettes inside office buildings by this time next year and we'll be back to chimneys belching clouds of fumes into the sky as well. May as well tell construction workers that hard hats and ear muffs won't be used anymore and remove vehicle safety standards while we're at it.

I see the appeal of retro things when it comes to architecture, books, films, music and so on but not when it comes to things like keeping people reasonably safe.

Yeah but Fake News, and Trump twitter says so.

On a more serious note....I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis.

Tisme · 14 August 2018

It's the mob's fault ... I'm guessing this relates to Trump's building business:

The backstory is in the president’s book. He wrote that efforts to regulate asbestos was part of a mob-led conspiracy: "I believe that the movement against asbestos was led by the mob, because it was often mob-related companies that would do the asbestos removal."

moXJO · 14 August 2018

There are different grades of asbestos. The one they used as lagging around pipes and the roof insulation one were the worst. The ones in roof sheets are fine while its bonded. Its when it becomes friable, the dust runs to the gutters and someone then cleans the gutters out. I've literally eaten the stuff and so did my old man.

I've cut and eaten a fair amount of it. So far so good on chest xrays. Another 2 friends died from it. One was in the building game but he also did the lagging on pipes in England. The other use to cart asbestos away in skip bins.
Its a fantastic substance apart from the fact it will kill you.

As for trump, the US never ban asbestos (only the friable stuff) and I think it can only be 1% of the weight. Now the replacements and other products seem to be bad as well. Things like silica and carbon nanotubes will give you mesothelioma.
Now the new rule:

The EPA has proposed a framework that will allow for the approval for "new uses" of asbestos

This rule allows the government to evaluate asbestos use on a case by case basis. Unfortunately the new rule does not include the evaluation of exposure to asbestos in the air, ground or water.

Its too open to corruption imo. The legacy issues can be a disaster. Will have to try and find the criteria under which it would be allowed. That said it apparently is up against the rules already in place.

Trump Derangement Syndrome

luutzu

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

SirRumpole

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

luutzu

Sdajii

Sdaji

Smurf1976

SirRumpole

SirRumpole

Smurf1976

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

IFocus

You are arguing with a Galah

Smurf1976

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

Smurf1976

Junior

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

moXJO

menace to society

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