Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

The future of energy generation and storage

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sptrawler said:
Is this what you guys are talking about?
As I keep saying, great ideas, with pizz poor planning and implementation, it was supposed to run on 50% H2 by 2025 and it hasn't even got a gas supply by 2025. :roflmao:
2021:
www.abc.net.au

Labor to unveil support for taxpayer-funded construction of gas-fired power station in the Hunter Valley, but it comes with a caveat

Federal Labor confirms it will back the taxpayer-funded construction of a gas-fired power station in the New South Wales Hunter Valley, under the proviso the facility runs on zero-emissions green hydrogen fuel earlier than expected.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

The federal government announced it would spend up to $600 million building the new gas-fired power station in Kurri Kurri in May last year as a way to fill the 1,000-megawatt gap left by the closure of the Liddell power station in 2023.

The decision was criticised by energy analysts and industry representatives, who said it was an unnecessary market intervention that could discourage private investment.

At the time, federal Labor backed those claims and opposed the project, saying the proposal did not stack up, or the market would have decided to build the plant itself.

Under Labor's plan, the plant would initially operate on 30 per cent "green hydrogen," which is a clean energy source made without fossil fuels with an aim to ultimately use the fuel 100 per cent of the time.

Labor argues the plan is in line with its commitment to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 43 per cent by 2030 if it secures government.

www.theguardian.com

Labor to support $600m Kurri Kurri power plant but only if it runs on green hydrogen by 2030

Anthony Albanese will back controversial Snowy Hydro project that Morrison government has committed to funding
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Guardian Australia understands Labor wants the proposed gas “peaking” plant to be powered by 30% hydrogen at the time it becomes operational, promised by next year, and 50% by 2025 and 100% by 2030.

www.offshore-technology.com

Kurri Kurri Lateral Pipeline, Australia

The Kurri Kurri lateral pipeline located in New South Wales, Australia is anticipated to commence operation in 2024.
www.offshore-technology.com www.offshore-technology.com

2025:
reneweconomy.com.au

Snowy seeks approval to burn six times more diesel than planned at Kurri Kurri gas generator

Snowy Hydro is seeking approval to run the Hunter Power Project entirely on diesel fuel in 2025, in a move that will send the hybrid gas plant’s year-one emissions soaring by up to 80%.
reneweconomy.com.au reneweconomy.com.au

Snowy Hydro’s “fast-start, on demand” hybrid hydrogen and gas plant is seeking permission to run entirely on costly and polluting diesel fuel for at least its first year, new documents have revealed, as the over-time and over-budget project continues to fall miserably short of its clean energy ambitions.
The wait for gas comes down to the project’s heavily criticised location beyond the end of the Sydney-Newcastle trunkline, which has meant building a 21km lateral pipeline connection as well as an on-site storage pipeline to the new power plant.

And because it relies on these on site storages, its ability to provide gas back-up in say, the feared “dunkelflautes” (periods of low wind and solar output), would be limited by its inability to operate for than 10 hours before its reserves are exhausted.

“Under the current program, commissioning of the power station is expected to commence in late 2024, but construction of the gas pipeline is not expected to be completed until late 2025.

“The delay in construction of the pipeline is due to a combination of factors that include the time taken for a pipeline licence to be granted … and construction delays caused by wet weather, hot weather and industrial action,” the documents say.
Click to expand...
You save me the effort, even test trial adding a bit of h2 in town gas supply.
WTF indeed rol
Ideology is a disease..
 
mullokintyre said:
Perhaps its a recognition that its policy model was somewhat questionable, the Feds have quietly removed a link to modelling that it used to pledge that it would not only reduce carbon emissions, but would decrease the cost of electricty by $275 this year.
From Evil Murdoch Press
Click to expand...
I actually see that as a good thing.

The sooner both sides of politics realise they're out of their depth, the sooner we might get actual solutions. :2twocents
 
basilio said:
I can't recall any intelligent analysis that would propose such a use of Hydrogen produced at solar/wind farms.
Click to expand...
The gas industry has been "selling" the idea that hydrogen is a straightforward replacement for natural gas and that consumers would use it. That's not just a thought, there's some reasonable organisation behind it complete with branding, sponsorships and so on. "Renewable gas" they call it.

In practice we've got a 10% hydrogen trial up and running successfully in part of Adelaide.

There's about 3700 properties using the blended gas in Mitchell Park, Clovelly Park and Marion (these being suburbs of Adelaide). The area chosen simply being to fit with the existing gas network configuration at minimal cost for alteration.

So that's ordinary consumers (mostly households) using this blended gas in the normal manner with their existing appliances. It's a real thing, it's up and running.

The 10% trial follows a previous successful trial at 5%. In theory it could be taken as far as 20% but that's the practical limit. So partly renewable gas, not fully.

Regarding the transporting of hydrogen off site, there's an existing industrial user that previously obtained hydrogen from interstate now being supplied from a local source. Their reasons for using hydrogen are technical (not political or economic).

1742269720090.png
 
Question to ChatGPT.

Can electricity producing gas turbines run on pure hydrogen, what is the most efficient fuel mix for them?

ChatGPT said:​

Yes, electricity-producing gas turbines can run on pure hydrogen, but there are challenges. Hydrogen has different combustion characteristics compared to natural gas, including a higher flame speed and lower ignition energy, which can lead to flashback and combustion instability. However, manufacturers like General Electric (GE), Siemens, and Mitsubishi are developing turbines specifically designed to run on pure hydrogen or high-hydrogen blends.

Most Efficient Fuel Mix for Gas Turbines​

The most efficient fuel mix depends on the turbine design and operational goals. Here are some common fuel mixtures and their efficiency considerations:
  1. Pure Hydrogen (H₂ - 100%)
    • Zero carbon emissions.
    • Requires special materials to handle high flame temperatures and prevent embrittlement.
    • Lower energy density per unit volume than natural gas, requiring larger storage.
    • Efficiency is typically lower compared to natural gas due to cooling losses.
  2. Hydrogen-Natural Gas Blends (10-50% H₂, rest CH₄)
    • Helps reduce CO₂ emissions while maintaining stable combustion.
    • Reduces NOₓ emissions compared to pure methane.
    • Many existing turbines can operate with up to 50% hydrogen with minimal modifications.
  3. Syngas (H₂ + CO + CH₄ Mix from Gasification of Biomass or Coal)
    • Used in integrated gasification combined cycle (IGCC) power plants.
    • Efficiency depends on gas composition and cleanup processes.
    • Typically lower energy content than pure methane but allows for carbon capture.
  4. Ammonia (NH₃) as a Hydrogen Carrier
    • Can be cracked into hydrogen for combustion.
    • Easier to transport than hydrogen.
    • Some turbines are being adapted to burn ammonia directly.

Efficiency Considerations​

  • Highest Thermal Efficiency: Natural gas (CH₄) still provides the highest thermal efficiency in most gas turbines.
  • Best Decarbonization Balance: A 30-50% hydrogen blend provides a good trade-off between efficiency, emissions reduction, and compatibility with existing infrastructure.
  • Future Zero-Carbon Option: Turbines designed for 100% hydrogen can eliminate CO₂ emissions entirely but require advanced cooling and materials.
Would you like information on specific hydrogen-ready gas turbines?

4o

You said:​

yes please

ChatGPT said:​

Several leading manufacturers have developed gas turbines capable of operating on hydrogen or hydrogen-natural gas blends, aiming to reduce carbon emissions and support the transition to cleaner energy sources. Here are some notable hydrogen-ready gas turbines:
GE Vernova's Hydrogen-Fueled Gas Turbines
GE Vernova has introduced aeroderivative gas turbines capable of operating on up to 100% hydrogen. These turbines are designed to help power plants decarbonize by implementing system modifications, enabling them to run on a wide range of hydrogen concentrations.
GE Vernova

th?id=OIP.jpg

Siemens Energy's Hydrogen-Ready Gas Turbines
Siemens Energy is developing gas turbines designed to operate on hydrogen-natural gas blends, with a roadmap to utilize 100% hydrogen by 2030. Their medium-sized gas turbines are currently capable of burning up to 75% hydrogen in the fuel mix, with ongoing testing at their Zero Emission Hydrogen Turbine Center.
Siemens Energy


Mitsubishi Power's Hydrogen-Capable Gas Turbines
Mitsubishi Power offers advanced class gas turbines capable of operating on hydrogen. Their H-25 Series, for instance, boasts co-generation efficiency greater than 80% and fuel flexibility, including the use of hydrogen. These turbines are designed for durability, ease of maintenance, and continuous operation.
Mitsubishi Power

th?id=OIP.jpg

These advancements indicate a significant shift toward integrating hydrogen as a viable fuel for gas turbines, supporting global efforts to reduce carbon emissions and transition to sustainable energy sources.
 
Has anyone thought, what they are going to do with all the sheep that are required to clear the vegitation, now that live export is banned?
BBQ adverts will be the next growth industry. Lol
 
Yallourn power station to be given a life extension apparently.


Deal to keep Yallourn power station running to 2028 could be extended​

Extending a deal that keeps Victoria’s dirtiest power station running to 2028 is likely to be considered in a bid for extra “insurance” to keep the lights on during the transition to renewables.
 
sptrawler said:
Has anyone thought, what they are going to do with all the sheep that are required to clear the vegitation, now that live export is banned?
BBQ adverts will be the next growth industry. Lol
Click to expand...

Abattoirs cannot get enough the export thing is vested interests at least that’s what I have been told by insiders
 
sptrawler said:
Yallourn power station to be given a life extension apparently.
Click to expand...
My personal view is only half of it will be extended.

It's a 4 unit station but for all practical purposes it's really 2 x two unit stations built as separate projects right next to each other.

Even just looking from the outside this is readily apparent: https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.1762834,146.3467648,3a,51.8y,253.08h,99.29t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1soTmq_QUj6e_fZKNA668Omw!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?cb_client=maps_sv.tactile&w=900&h=600&pitch=-9.285964942457753&panoid=oTmq_QUj6e_fZKNA668Omw&yaw=253.07744069383392!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxNy4wIKXMDSoJLDEwMjExNjM5SAFQAw==

The older two are on the right from that view, 3 and 4 are on the left. Separate conveyor, separate stack, separate cooling tower, separate everything.

Units 1 & 2 are somewhat older than units 3 and 4. Original in service dates for 1 & 2 being 1973 and 1975, and for 3 & 4 it was 1981 for both.

Also significant design differences in the boilers. Of no real consequence but also different design of the stack, different cooling tower (one tower for both units 3 & 4 versus one each for 1 & 2).

It's all been run hard since it was built, overall its spent a huge amount of time running flat out, and it's not in great shape especially the older two.

So speculation on my part, but if there's any extension I'm expecting it'll be for 3 & 4 only. Noting at present they're all set to close on the same day. :2twocents
 
Knobby22 said:
Just some interesting trivia from the UK.
Click to expand...
Apparently coal's uncommon enough in the UK these days that heritage steam railways are now finding it difficult to get hold of the trivial quantities they require.

Finding it difficult as in they're resorting to "anything that burns", things that aren't coal at all, since it's either that or game over, no more tourist steam train trips.

I did find some amusement however. In order to ride the steam train up the mountain we parked the car at the most convenient location which, strangely enough, was directly outside..... a hydro power station. No I didn't feel the need to do the public tour of it. :roflmao:

That was some years ago now and they were definitely still burning real coal to run the locomotive at that point.
 
sptrawler said:
Yallourn power station to be given a life extension apparently.


Deal to keep Yallourn power station running to 2028 could be extended​

Extending a deal that keeps Victoria’s dirtiest power station running to 2028 is likely to be considered in a bid for extra “insurance” to keep the lights on during the transition to renewables.
Click to expand...
This speculation has been denied by the government. This was advised to Newscorp but they still went ahead with the article.
 
Knobby22 said:
This speculation has been denied by the government. This was advised to Newscorp but they still went ahead with the article.
Click to expand...
That's good news, trying to keep really old coal plant online is counterproductive IMO, far better installing new gas firming, than wasting money on clapped out coal stations.
 
Putting lipstick on a pig ?

What is actually going on with our process of developing renewables ? It seems to be a shambles.

Chris Bowen 'pleased' with interest in WA's offshore wind farm zone, despite six developers pulling out​


www.abc.net.au

Three more companies pull out of WA offshore wind project

Six companies have now confirmed they won't pursue the federal government's offshore wind project in WA despite millions of dollars already invested.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
 
SirRumpole said:
Putting lipstick on a pig ?

What is actually going on with our process of developing renewables ? It seems to be a shambles.

Chris Bowen 'pleased' with interest in WA's offshore wind farm zone, despite six developers pulling out​


www.abc.net.au

Three more companies pull out of WA offshore wind project

Six companies have now confirmed they won't pursue the federal government's offshore wind project in WA despite millions of dollars already invested.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
Click to expand...
As usual great ideas, with pizz poor planning and implementation.
Setting targets, before being able to lay down a plan of the how, where and what with, was as dumb as it comes.
The whole plan is looking like a Cadbury's box of mixed chocolates, without the box, no one knows what's coming next.😂
 
Smurf1976 said:
The gas industry has been "selling" the idea that hydrogen is a straightforward replacement for natural gas and that consumers would use it. That's not just a thought, there's some reasonable organisation behind it complete with branding, sponsorships and so on. "Renewable gas" they call it.

In practice we've got a 10% hydrogen trial up and running successfully in part of Adelaide.

There's about 3700 properties using the blended gas in Mitchell Park, Clovelly Park and Marion (these being suburbs of Adelaide). The area chosen simply being to fit with the existing gas network configuration at minimal cost for alteration.

So that's ordinary consumers (mostly households) using this blended gas in the normal manner with their existing appliances. It's a real thing, it's up and running.

The 10% trial follows a previous successful trial at 5%. In theory it could be taken as far as 20% but that's the practical limit. So partly renewable gas, not fully.

Regarding the transporting of hydrogen off site, there's an existing industrial user that previously obtained hydrogen from interstate now being supplied from a local source. Their reasons for using hydrogen are technical (not political or economic).

View attachment 195611
Click to expand...
Real question is how much is leaking in the retail network before being burnt...
Is any actually burnt?
Any with noone interested in negative results in the trial, is it even checked.....
 

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