Abbott's counter terrorism measures

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noco said:

Now I wonder why these 80 Australian Muslim leaders are against Abbott's counter terrorism laws?

Where is Ed Kusek?......He has not said a word about all this.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...inst-tony-abbott/story-fnj45fvb-1227034970939

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So glad to see every non muslim in the country out banner waving Team Australia flags in full and unconditional support for counter terrorism laws the Government so far has been unable / unwilling to competently explain.

The Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security (OIGIS) came out a couple of weeks ago and said they have neither the body count or skills to appropriately monitor the use and potential abuse of the new surveillance powers being proposed.

How can we have faith in a system when the watcher of the watchers has admitted it's not able to fulfil it's role competently?

http://www.zdnet.com/au/spy-agency-computer-taps-face-oversight-deficiency-7000032654/

sydboy007 said:

So glad to see every non muslim in the country out banner waving Team Australia flags in full and unconditional support for counter terrorism laws the Government so far has been unable / unwilling to competently explain.

The Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security (OIGIS) came out a couple of weeks ago and said they have neither the body count or skills to appropriately monitor the use and potential abuse of the new surveillance powers being proposed.

How can we have faith in a system when the watcher of the watchers has admitted it's not able to fulfil it's role competently?

http://www.zdnet.com/au/spy-agency-computer-taps-face-oversight-deficiency-7000032654/

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Not enough watchers eh?
Guess that's one way to create jobs then of course another issue arises, how to screen the screening of potential applicants.

Maybe this will happen on an AUSTRALIAN DOMESTIC FLIGHT one day.


Would you believe this!



Hi: I tried to check this out with snopes, neither denied or confirmed...


Subject: Fwd: Flight 297


CANCELLED FLIGHT WOW!!!



They may be "politically incorrect", but at least they had the courage
to report it.

In my opinion, the Muslims are all getting very brave now. Read Tedd
Petruna's story below. Can you imagine, our own news media now are so
politically correct that they are afraid to report that these were all
Muslims?

Unbelievable. Thank God for people like Tedd Petruna.

Tedd Petruna is a diver at the NBL (Neutral Buoyancy Lab) facility at
NASA Houston .. Tedd happened to be on the AirTran Flight 297, from
Atlanta to Houston . Here's his report :

“One week ago, I went to Ohio on business and to see my father. On
Tuesday, the 17th, I returned home. If you read the papers the 18th
you may have seen a blurb about where an Air Tran flight was canceled
from Atlanta to Houston due to a man who refused to get off of his
cell phone before take- off.. The story was only on Fox News. That was
NOT what really happened.

I was seated in 1st class coming home. Eleven Muslim men got on the
plane in full Muslim attire. Two of them sat in 1st class and the rest
seated themselves throughout the plane, in coach class, all the way to
the back. As the plane taxied out to the runway, the stewardesses gave
the safety spiel that we are all so familiar with.

At that time, one of the men in 1st class, got on his cell and called
one of his companions back in coach. He proceeded to talk on the phone
in Arabic very loudly and very, very aggressively. This activity took
the 1st stewardess out of action for she repeatedly told the man that
cell phones were not permitted at that time. He ignored her as if she
were not there. The man, who answered the phone back in the coach
section, did the same and this took out the 2nd stewardess. Further
back in the plane, at the same time, two younger Muslims, one in the
back on the aisle, and one sitting in front of him by the window,
began to show footage of a porno video they had taped the night
before. They were very loud about it.

The 3rd stewardess informed the two men that they were not to have any
electronic devices on at this time. One of the men said "shut up
infidel dog!"

The stewardess attempted to take the camcorder and the Muslim began to
scream in her face in Arabic. At that exact moment, all eleven of the
men got up and started to walk throughout the cabin. I guess that
because of the noise, the flight crew must have decided that there was
something amiss and changed the plane's directions to head back to the
terminal.

The commotion and noise was reaching a feverish pitch, and at this
point I had had enough! I got up and started towards the back of 1st
class when I heard a voice behind me from another Texan twice my size,
say, "I got your back." Then I grabbed the man, who had been on the
cell phone, by the arm and said, "You WILL sit down in your seat or
you WILL be thrown from this plane!" As I "led" him around me to take
his seat, the fellow Texan grabbed him by the back of his neck and his
waist and headed him back to his seat. I then grabbed the 2nd man and
said, "You WILL do the same!"

He protested loudly, but my adrenaline was flowing now and he was
going to go also. Just as I escorted him forward, the plane stopped,
the doors opened and three TSA agents and four police officers entered
the cabin. Myself and my new Texas friend were told to cease and
desist for they had the situation under control.

I was quite happy to oblige, actually. There was still some sort of
commotion in the back, but within moments, all eleven Muslim men were
escorted off the plane. The TSA agents then had their luggage
unloaded. We talked about the occurrence and were in disbelief that it
had happened.

Then suddenly, the door opened again and in walked all eleven Muslim
men! Stone faced, eyes front and robotic, (the only way I can describe
it) and they were reseated. The stewardess from the back had been in
tears and when she saw the men, she was having NONE of it! Since I was
up front, I heard and saw the whole ordeal. She told the TSA agents
that there was NO WAY she was staying on the plane with the Muslim
men. The agent told her that they had searched the men and were going
through their luggage with a fine tooth comb. However, nothing had
been found and that the men were allowed to proceed on to Houston.

The captain and co-captain came out of the cockpit and told the agent,
"We and our crew will not fly this plane!" After a word or two, the
entire crew, luggage in tow, left the plane. Five minutes later, the
cabin door opened again and a whole new crew walked on. Again, this
was where I had had enough! I got up and asked the TSA agent,” What
the hell is going on?

I was told to take my seat. The airlines and TSA were sorry for the
delay and we would be home shortly. I said, "I'm getting off this
plane". The stewardess sternly told me that she could not allow me to
get off. Now I'm really mad! I said, "I am a grown man who bought this
ticket, whose time is mine, with a family at home, and I am going
through that door, or I'm going through that door with you under my
arm, but I AM going through that door!"

And then I heard a voice behind me say, "So am I!" Then everyone
behind us started to get up and say the same thing. Within two
minutes, I was walking off that plane where I was met by more TSA
agents, who asked me to write a statement about the incident. I had
five hours to kill at this point waiting for the next flight to
Houston , so why the hell not give them my statement. Due to the
amount of people who got off that flight, it was canceled. I was
supposed to be in Houston at 6 PM, but I finally got there at 12:30
AM. If you don't believe this, look up the date and then Flight 297
from Atlanta to Houston.

If this wasn't a terrorism dry run, I don't know what is. The
terrorists wanted to see how TSA would handle it, how the crew would
handle it, and how the passengers would handle it. I'm telling this to
you because I want you to know. The threat IS real. I saw it with my
own eyes."

Tedd Petruna

May I request that you keep this going until this incident reaches the
email of all POLITICIANS and the news media!

PEOPLE THAT DELETE THIS TYPE OF EMAIL, REFUSE TO PASS IT ON, OR SIMPLY
DON'T CARE ARE ONE OF THE REASONS THAT PEOPLE THAT DO CARE CAN'T MAKE
ANY HEADWAY... THE THREATS ARE REAL.

A http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/flight297.asp is a link to the event. Seems Tedd probably wasn't on the flight.

It's scary how people will try to whip up hatred on the internet. The story is obviously embellished.

If this wasn't a terrorism dry run, I don't know what is. The
terrorists wanted to see how TSA would handle it, how the crew would
handle it, and how the passengers would handle it. I'm telling this to
you because I want you to know. The threat IS real. I saw it with my
own eyes."

Click to expand...

This stuff is cr@p. Does anyone really believe that terrorists would draw attention to themselves in such an obvious manner for a "dry run" ? As if anyone would say to the authorities "I'm a terrorist out for a bit of practice for the real thing, my name, address and phone number are ...".

This bit of tripe is just so much redneck propaganda it's laughable that people like noco actually believe it.

Grow a brain matey.

Polling out today seems to give the truth to the real reasons as to why Abbott and the Govt are trying to whip up a national security scare.

As for noco, that fake report was out so long ago I have to quickly google to remind myself of how many factual errors there were in it. I suppose latching on to false reports tha further your agenda is OK because it's for TEAM AUSTRALIA. We may not be Global Police, but hopefully make a decent side kick.

SirRumpole said:

This stuff is cr@p. Does anyone really believe that terrorists would draw attention to themselves in such an obvious manner for a "dry run" ? As if anyone would say to the authorities "I'm a terrorist out for a bit of practice for the real thing, my name, address and phone number are ...".

This bit of tripe is just so much redneck propaganda it's laughable that people like noco actually believe it.

Grow a brain matey.

Click to expand...

I think 90% of Noco's news comes from chain emails.

noco said:

Maybe this will happen on an AUSTRALIAN DOMESTIC FLIGHT one day.


Would you believe this!



Hi: I tried to check this out with snopes, neither denied or confirmed...


Subject: Fwd: Flight 297


CANCELLED FLIGHT WOW!!!



They may be "politically incorrect", but at least they had the courage
to report it.

In my opinion, the Muslims are all getting very brave now. Read Tedd
Petruna's story below. Can you imagine, our own news media now are so
politically correct that they are afraid to report that these were all
Muslims?

Unbelievable. Thank God for people like Tedd Petruna.

Tedd Petruna is a diver at the NBL (Neutral Buoyancy Lab) facility at
NASA Houston .. Tedd happened to be on the AirTran Flight 297, from
Atlanta to Houston . Here's his report :
<snip>

Click to expand...

noco, the sceptic in me says that's emotional terrorism spin doctoring at it's very worst. Next we'll be hearing about how man didn't land on the moon and that the Twin Towers was a Fed plot.

Remember ppl, keeping the punters running scared is the best way to control us!

boofhead said:

A http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/flight297.asp is a link to the event. Seems Tedd probably wasn't on the flight.

Click to expand...

Hmmmmmm......the way I read the story is Tedd departed from the plane with some others before it took off so yes he was not on the flight when it took off.....you see this all happened on the aircraft as it was taxing to take off and then returned to the tarmac when the trouble started......He caught the next plane 5 hours later.

Did anyone else read it that way or are you all following boofhead's analysis of events.

noco said:

Did anyone else read it that way or are you all following boofhead's analysis of events.

Click to expand...

I read it as just another urban myth.

SirRumpole said:

I read it as just another urban myth.

Click to expand...

An urban myth ha.......perhaps you might like to explain or are you convinced that perhaps what happened to Tedd or Todd is true.......come what may Todd was on the aircraft while on the ground......he got off the aircraft with other people, never got back on and then boarded another flight about 5 hours later.

There does seem to be conflicting stories about the whole incident.....so believe what ever version suits you and your facetious mates.

noco said:

There does seem to be conflicting stories about the whole incident.....so believe what ever version suits you and your facetious mates.

Click to expand...

Isn't that exactly what you've done? Decided to believe 1 version is 100% accurate and any other version is simply not true and anyone questioning the validity is facetious.

You do realise that "story" was from way back in 2009. It wasn't a recent event.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/flight297.asp

Analysis: The so-called "eyewitness" who wrote this viral email wasn't even on the plane, according to AirTran officials quoted in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Dec. 5, 2009. Tedd J. Petruna was booked on Flight 297, airline records show, but his connecting flight from Akron arrived too late for him to actually board the Houston-bound plane.

AirTran had previously taken issue with many of the specifics of Petruna's self-aggrandizing account, which the company describes as "an urban legend." To be sure, the email contains no shortage of melodrama.

Would a real Muslim terrorist ”” as opposed to, say, one you might see depicted in a Hollywood action picture, or a comic book ”” actually yell "Shut up, infidel dog!" at a flight attendant?

More to the point, would they do so during what is supposed to be an undercover "terrorist dry run"?

You be the judge.

Update #2: Flight attendant affidavits contradict Petruna's claims

Feb. 23, 2010 - Affidavits filed the day of the incident by all three flight attendants aboard Flight 297 describe problems they had dealing with a group of passengers described as "unruly" and "uncooperative," but there's no mention of men in "Muslim garb" shouting threats in Arabic or having physical confrontations with other passengers. View the documents...

noco said:

An urban myth ha.......perhaps you might like to explain or are you convinced that perhaps what happened to Tedd or Todd is true.......come what may Todd was on the aircraft while on the ground......he got off the aircraft with other people, never got back on and then boarded another flight about 5 hours later.

There does seem to be conflicting stories about the whole incident.....so believe what ever version suits you and your facetious mates.

Click to expand...

sydboy007 said:

Isn't that exactly what you've done? Decided to believe 1 version is 100% accurate and any other version is simply not true and anyone questioning the validity is facetious.

You do realise that "story" was from way back in 2009. It wasn't a recent event.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/flight297.asp

Analysis: The so-called "eyewitness" who wrote this viral email wasn't even on the plane, according to AirTran officials quoted in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Dec. 5, 2009. Tedd J. Petruna was booked on Flight 297, airline records show, but his connecting flight from Akron arrived too late for him to actually board the Houston-bound plane.

AirTran had previously taken issue with many of the specifics of Petruna's self-aggrandizing account, which the company describes as "an urban legend." To be sure, the email contains no shortage of melodrama.

Would a real Muslim terrorist ”” as opposed to, say, one you might see depicted in a Hollywood action picture, or a comic book ”” actually yell "Shut up, infidel dog!" at a flight attendant?

More to the point, would they do so during what is supposed to be an undercover "terrorist dry run"?

You be the judge.

Update #2: Flight attendant affidavits contradict Petruna's claims

Feb. 23, 2010 - Affidavits filed the day of the incident by all three flight attendants aboard Flight 297 describe problems they had dealing with a group of passengers described as "unruly" and "uncooperative," but there's no mention of men in "Muslim garb" shouting threats in Arabic or having physical confrontations with other passengers. View the documents...

Click to expand...

So you are now saying Ted Petruna's account of advents on that flight are completely false.....I find it hard to believe someone could come up with such a story which is near to what the other flight attendants have stated.

Craton said:

noco, the sceptic in me says that's emotional terrorism spin doctoring at it's very worst. Next we'll be hearing about how man didn't land on the moon and that the Twin Towers was a Fed plot.

Remember ppl, keeping the punters running scared is the best way to control us!

Click to expand...

Noco reminds me of the few times I intentionally decided to watch a good horror movie just to get a little adrenaline but ended up turning the lights on all night and a much needed toilet break can wait til morning.

The difference is he seem to already believe in the boogey man and actually believe the stuff he read seriously exists; then set out to scare the heck out of everyone else because he's so convinced they exists.

Now that's a really scary horror story.

luutzu said:

Noco reminds me of the few times I intentionally decided to watch a good horror movie just to get a little adrenaline but ended up turning the lights on all night and a much needed toilet break can wait til morning.

The difference is he seem to already believe in the boogey man and actually believe the stuff he read seriously exists; then set out to scare the heck out of everyone else because he's so convinced they exists.

Now that's a really scary horror story.

Click to expand...

What a heap of CODS WADDLE ....stop talking through your chocolate lips...that really is kindergarten stuff if you consider yourself a person of maturity....I suggest you grow up.

OK, OK, back to attacking the ball.

From: http://www.itnews.com.au/News/39129...-details-on-data-retention.aspx#ixzz3BT5EpLzp

Update: AGD offers list of data to be stored.


The Australian Government has offered the telecommunications industry a precise definition of the metadata it wants retained under the banner of national security.

The Attorney-General's Department on Friday issued a consultation paper - maked "confidential" - to select members of the industry in an effort to clarify the Government's bungled attempt to explain the technical details behind its plan to force internet service providers to store non-content data for up to two years.


The department said it was seeking industry feedback about the practicality of retaining the specified data, and that it would use the feedback to develop the policy further.

The paper, sighted by iTnews, claims that a rapid increase in new services and business models are eroding traditional business drivers for the retaining of telecommunications data - and therefore the availability of information for law enforcement.

For the first time since the Government announced the policy, the AGD offered telcos specific detail on what data it wants stored.

It emphasised that despite previous comments by two Government ministers, the specified dataset would not involve the retention of “web address identifiers” such as destination IP addresses or URLs.

The Government wants telecommunications companies to store:
names, addresses, birthdates, financial and billing information of internet and phone account holders;
traffic data such as numbers called and texted, as well as times and dates of communications;
when and where online communications services start and end;
a user’s IP address;
type and location of communication equipment; and
upload and download volumes, among others.

The AGD did not respond to iTnews requests for further clarification.

The Australian Government’s view, the paper states, is that the scheme would apply to all companies providing communications services in the country.

Clearing up the confusion

Representatives from Australia's spy agency ASIO and the federal police were forced to front the media earlier this month after both Prime Minister Tony Abbott and Attorney-General George Brandis failed to offer a definition of the data to be retained under the scheme.

Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull - who had originally been left out of the policy development - was forced to intervene to clarify that, contrary to comments made by both Abbott and Brandis, website addresses were not included.

The telecommunications industry had previously relied on a 2009 briefing paper - provided by the Labor Government for its proposed data retention scheme - for details on what they might be required to do.

Ministers Turnbull and Brandis began meeting with industry earlier this month.

ASIO and the AFP are pushing for source IP addresses to be retained as opposed to destination IP addresses alongside non-content call data, and claimed to have no interest in user browsing history.

Representatives from the two agencies have argued that the data they were seeking to access was already being retained by telcos, but needed to be stored longer to better assist law enforcement agencies.

Update 5:42pm:

The Attorney-General's Department said items within the draft data set had been included on the advice of agencies that such pieces of information were valuable and relevant for investigations.

In response to questions about why the Government had included upload and download volumes in the metadata list, a spokesperson declined to comment specifically but said "the value of telecommunications data in protecting public safety is indisputable".

"The Government welcomes industry’s assistance in developing data retention and expects the policy process to be informed by industry feedback," the spokesperson said.

"The consultations do not pre-empt a particular outcome and the scope of data retention needs to be settled."

Click to expand...

Sorry but for my liking, lots of conflicting stuff there as opposed to what our pollies were spinning to us. I know it's not done and dusted as per the last sentence. Now tell me, if the data already collected is adequate but the retention time needs to be elongated, why no extend the data retention time?

Tell me, why in the hell does ASIO and AFP want more and more info stored then?

Big Brother tactics just doesn't wash with me as there already are plenty of avenues for the sec. agencies to use other than a blanket cover of all Australia citizens. No, I don't have anything to hide but I sure feel like I have under these proposals. :bad:

So, recently our security agencies have thwarted a couple of threats WITHOUT the need to implement tougher laws and yet, the govt. persists with this agenda of eroding our rights and branding it an inconvenience for our safety.

I'll look this up soon enough but can anyone tell me what occurred to the laws enacted for the Sydney Olympic games, the post 9/11 tightening and no doubt other laws passed to strengthen security as temporary measures?

No doubt, these have flown under the radar and still in force.

Speaking of rights, I guess the only time we stood up for our rights was at the Eureka Stockade and we all know what happened there. Anyhow, the govt. will have its wishes and we will be apathetic as always. Recent events will no doubt spur support for any counter terrorism measure the govt. dreams up.

Tony speaks of Team Australia but he doesn't speak like a Captain asking for each player to do his or her part. He's just calling on support for his own agenda. Way to go Tony, great way to unite and bond the populace on a common front.