Australian Defence Discussion

[moXJO]

The future of warfare is drones. Especially for our pimply teenagers that play too much COD,Fortnite,rainbow six siege.
Their reaction time alone could win us wars.

They would probably die with exposure to sunlight if they had to fight in the real world.

 

[SirRumpole]

The disadvantage with diesel subs, other than being fossil fueled is, they are noisy, they have to run on battery when submerged, so have limited time submerged and become easy target when travelling near the surface to recharge the batteries, refuel etc and have a snorkel to run the diesel which is easily spotted.

They have to be refueled at regular intervals, which would be problematic as the fuel supply ships, or fuel supply installations up North could be easily targeted and neutralise the subs, plus they and the supply ships are sitting ducks for aerial attack.

Nuclear are only limited by how much food they can carry, they make their own drinking water and oxygen, so they can travel for months underwater, only limited by food and the crews ability to cope with the mental issues.

With Australia having such a massive coastline, with minimal population for most of it, nuclear subs are really the only mobile stealth platform that is plausible. IMO
Downside as you say they cost a stupid amount, but hey there is no point in spending half the amount for something that wont work.
Just my opinion, it's a bit like batteries/hydro discussion at the moment, it depends what sort of outcome you want.

Air-independent propulsion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Knobby22]

Air-independent propulsion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, using chemical energy, e.g. fuel cells would inherently be quieter than any nuclear engine.
I was amazed to see that in your post Sir Rumpole that India and Portugal do just that and China are developing the technology.
I doubt the Portuguese one though as there was no link and I find it hard to imagine them ahead in a technology like this.

 

[sptrawler]

Air-independent propulsion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From your post, they sound ideal for places where range and size isn't an issue.
Providing the long range, long duration coastal protection Australia would require, doesn't look like their forte.
These subs would be competing against the unmanned drone subs IMO


While nuclear-powered designs still dominate in submergence times, speed, range, and deep-ocean performance, small, high-tech non-nuclear attack submarines can be highly effective in coastal operations and pose a significant threat to less-stealthy and less-maneuverable nuclear submarines.[3]

AIP is usually implemented as an auxiliary source, with the traditional diesel engine handling surface propulsion. Most such systems generate electricity, which in turn drives an electric motor for propulsion or recharges the boat's batteries. The submarine's electrical system is also used for providing "hotel services"—ventilation, lighting, heating etc.—although this consumes a small amount of power compared to that required for propulsion.

 

[SirRumpole]

From your post, they sound ideal for places where range and size isn't an issue.
Providing the long range, long duration coastal protection Australia would require, doesn't look like their forte.
These subs would be competing against the unmanned drone subs IMO


While nuclear-powered designs still dominate in submergence times, speed, range, and deep-ocean performance, small, high-tech non-nuclear attack submarines can be highly effective in coastal operations and pose a significant threat to less-stealthy and less-maneuverable nuclear submarines.[3]

AIP is usually implemented as an auxiliary source, with the traditional diesel engine handling surface propulsion. Most such systems generate electricity, which in turn drives an electric motor for propulsion or recharges the boat's batteries. The submarine's electrical system is also used for providing "hotel services"—ventilation, lighting, heating etc.—although this consumes a small amount of power compared to that required for propulsion.

Well dream on.

With increasing tension in the South China Sea and also in Europe, the priorities for both the US and UK are going to be their own fleets.

Highly unlikely we will ever get nukes, we maybe just another US naval base with no sovereign capability of our own.

Id like a Rolls Royce but I have to settle for a Hyundai. LOL.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

The disadvantage with diesel subs, other than being fossil fueled is, they are noisy,

people keep saying this, but
1 . an Aussie sub penetrated Cam Ranh Bay in (unified) Vietnam and pinned the tail on a Russian sub donkey ... late 1990s
2. an Aussie sub entered Pearl Harbour and tagged a US Navy ship

Both times, they entered and departed undetected.

 

[IFocus]

people keep saying this, but
1 . an Aussie sub penetrated Cam Ranh Bay in (unified) Vietnam and pinned the tail on a Russian sub donkey ... late 1990s
2. an Aussie sub entered Pearl Harbour and tagged a US Navy ship

Both times, they entered and departed undetected.

Was going to mention the same also a couple of times during combined exercises with the US.
I have seen arguments that the diesel submarines are best in the coastal regions which is the requirement for Australia.
Then there is the argument that offence onshore is a better option.
To me nuclear submarines without nuclear weapons is pointless.

 

[sptrawler]

Well dream on.

With increasing tension in the South China Sea and also in Europe, the priorities for both the US and UK are going to be their own fleets.

Highly unlikely we will ever get nukes, we maybe just another US naval base with no sovereign capability of our own.

Id like a Rolls Royce but I have to settle for a Hyundai. LOL.

All good points, I guess the powers that be will decide, if anyone would be prepared to can the nuke idea Albo would.
So as usual time will tell.