This is a mobile optimized page that loads fast, if you want to load the real page, click this text.

What is the economic purpose of put and call options?

Jump to new

Tysonboss1

Joined
12 November 2007
Posts
2,944
Reactions
4
Does the options market have a real economic purpose, Is their a genuine need to have an options market attached to a sharemarket, does it create move stability or does it exist solely to act as a conduit for people to leverage up their speculative positions.

Don't get me wrong, I sell both put and call options regularly. I have a very conservative stratergy of selling out of the money Calls on stocks I own and are a little over priced and wouldn't mind selling at the strike and I sell Puts on stock i wouldn't mind buying if the hit the strike.

But by selling the calls and puts am I generating any real benefits to the rest of the share market or economy as a whole, are the contracts i am writting doing any good for the wider society, Is the person buying my puts getting any real value other having a bet on.
 
Re: What is the economic purpose / of put and call options.

Tysonboss1 said:
Does the options market have a real economic purpose,
Click to expand...

Yes, the transfer of risk similar to insurance

Is their a genuine need to have an options market attached to a sharemarket,
Click to expand...

Yes, see above.

As a purported property guru, you should be aware that call and put options are used extensively in the property development market. Exactly the same mechanics and exactly the same purpose, hedging and transference of risk.

does it create move stability or does it exist solely to act as a conduit for people to leverage up their speculative positions.
Click to expand...

Leverage of speculative positions, though widely used via options, is a poor use of the instrument IMO. IOW this is not the main purpose of options.

Again see above


Who gives a rat's? Use them for your own purpose and if some muppet wants to take the other side, all the better.

Capitalism 101
 
Re: What is the economic purpose / of put and call options.


I can see how options can be used as insurance, That is actually my preferred way of thinking about it that way I feel I am providing someone a real service by selling them an option . I can't help but think though that there are many more people insuring "Houses" they don't own rather than insuring their own property.

I again see how options can be used in property, for example westfield has bought 12 month options on peoples houses in the past when they were planning a shopping centre expansion, this is different to some one buying a call option on a stock, or maybe it's not.

I don't know, I guess I just want to feel like I am offering a real service.
 
Re: What is the economic purpose / of put and call options.


We've been down this path numerous times before, just because someone has bought your calls doesn't mean they are gambling\losing.

You're selling your calls and puts at less than fair value while the sell-side has completed the arbitrage (short synth\long natural). You don't care/know about this as your target is the strike price.

As wayne has already stated, but people always seem to miss it, no one who knows anything about derivatives are solely buying calls/puts for a speculative play.

Options are used a lot for hedging. If you've ever worked professionally in interest rates, energy, fx and commodity space, then you'd be thankful options are around.

Didn't the golden boy sell SPX puts?
 
Give fund managers another way to be creative and keep a lot employ

Look at those protected share portfolio, how do you think they do it ?

Charge you crazy fees, they turn around buy puts on that portfolio
 
ROE said:
Give fund managers another way to be creative and keep a lot employ

Look at those protected share portfolio, how do you think they do it ?

Charge you crazy fees, they turn around buy puts on that portfolio
Click to expand...

ASX equity option market is by no means representative of how these derivatives are used and the variety that is available.
 
Sure - all the idealistic examples you've all provided may be sufficient raisons d'être for options. However, from a decade of collating and analysing distribution of Open Interest around expiry time, I can most definitely say options are an effective means to manipulate entire markets.

And I'm not only referring to those really obvious machinations of a Solomon Lew, who years ago used an extraordinary number of Coles-Myer options to state a point. It's noteworthy that time and again the share price of a mother stock will "magically drift" to within a hair's width either side of the strike price that denies the greatest number of holders the right to exercise. Or it may lure the holders to exercise for the sake of a cent - and within days, the share has "magically" resumed a position at the other side of that strike price.

As an example, look at this chart, showing the distribution of ANZ options expiring on 27/01/2011. The Closing price ended between the highest strike with an excess of Puts ($23.50) and the lowest strike with excessive Calls ($24.00). That resulted in writers of Calls not having to sell their shares for $24 or more. Now check what ANZ's share price did immediately after the 27th: Correct! It rose, having been held back for about a week before snapping higher to $26.



So, the cynic in me remains convinced that it's one more tool to separate suckers from their shares or dough - usually both. If buying a Put option is likened to paying an insurance premium against the price dropping, then what we're observing is: The company that sold you the Put (insurance) and makes sure the share closes a cent above the strike, is akin to an insurer, who makes certain your property stays dry, but opens the floodgate the day after your policy expires.
 
pixel said:
However, from a decade of collating and analysing distribution of Open Interest around expiry time, I can most definitely say options are an effective means to manipulate entire markets.
Click to expand...

In that ten years of analysis, you've never heard of strike pinning and dynamic hedging?
 
Re: What is the economic purpose / of put and call options.

Tysonboss1 said:
I don't know, I guess I just want to feel like I am offering a real service.
Click to expand...
Someone wants to buy an option, and you sell it to him. That's all the service he wanted, and all you have given .
 
not sure about the point of the ANZ example as far as conspiracy theories.

a glance at ANZ reveals that its average price during the 2 months before expiry was around $23.27, so ending up at 23.58 is hardly an outlier. Where would you expect it to end up?

since it spent most of the previous two months around that level, it is a given that there will be excess calls slightly above and puts slightly below. That ANZ remains somehwere between those two strikes on a given day is such bog standard behaviour it would only be noteworthy if it had moved significantly into that area just before expiry and then moved away again just afterwards

It is not exactly pinned either, unless you are going to count at least 32% of possible outcomes as pinned

There may well be examples of markets being manipulated to suit open option positions (rather than options manipulating the market), but this isnt one of them.
 
Re: What is the economic purpose / of put and call options.

Tysonboss1 said:
I don't know, I guess I just want to feel like I am offering a real service.
Click to expand...

Welcome back Tysonboss,

We have actually been through this before but it's the other way round, the professionals are providing you (and me) liquidity for a fee.

I think the golden boy mazza may be referring to was an acquaintance of N.T. who blew up an equity fund selling OTM puts but i'm sure he will correct me if i'm wrong
 
mazzatelli said:
In that ten years of analysis, you've never heard of strike pinning and dynamic hedging?
Click to expand...

Mazza would have a better idea about this than me, but I don't believe there is any conspiracy in the max pain (pinning to the strike with most open positions) phenomenon.

According to one ex options market maker, this is merely a by-product of the delta hedging of their book AKA dynamic hedging.

IME, max pain is just as likely to NOT happen as happen and in my trading I can safely ignore the purported max pain level.

Just my thoughts and stand to be corrected.
 
I agree Wayne. I have studied it, collected data and calculated all sorts of different formulations to see if there was any consistency, but found it to be too unreliable to trade on it's own.
 
I am a bit confused by the dynamic hedging theory.

dynamic hedging a long premium position would tend to 'pin' it near a strike, (since price moving above a strike would require selling stock to remain delta neutral and vice versa).

But conversely, delta hedging a short premium position would have the opposite effect ie price moving up would require buying stock to remain dn.

for a stock to be pinned as a result of dynamic hedging therefore implies that the market makers and professionals would have to be heavily net long options in the run up to expiry, which i find unlikely. if anything they are more likely to be net short which should have the opposite effect ??
 

Spec longs are more likely to be OTM (at inception at least), whereas there is a lot of retail selling ATM (CCs etc), ergo much long gamma ATM.

Again stand to be corrected.
 
Tysonboss1 said:
who is the golden boy
Click to expand...
This is all you got from the post? lol

cutz said:
I think the golden boy mazza
Click to expand...
I'm such a narcissist, this is how I read it - just joking

village idiot said:
But conversely, delta hedging a short premium position would have the opposite effect ie price moving up would require buying stock to remain dn.
Click to expand...
What about ATM combos atm - i.e. short straddle? Where are they pushing that? How would they dynamically hedge that?
 
village idiot said:
not sure I understand the question mazza?
Click to expand...

hey vi, if I read that last bit of the post correctly - insto's and MM are likely to be net short so unlikely for pinning because of dynamic hedging?

Originally edited my post because I was going to discuss about some funds that build trading [algos] around the expiration dates and other players re-balancing. Basically some are conceptually short the atm straddle on expiration [as part of vol arb engine] - in this case, they would like the atm strike pinned.

But heed what wayne and sails have said. Conspiracy theories everywhere - its not always retail on the opposite side of insto's/MM/funds.

The only place I've seen blatant manipulation is with dealer markets involving barrier ops.

As to providing an economic purpose using options - those loans that Tysonboss takes out to invest in his properties - I wonder how the interest rate risk is managed by the provider to enable them to provide the loan?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
What could be safer than writing a covered call?
Replies
15
Views
3K
Santafe
S
Buying and selling physical gold
Replies
6
Views
1K
Sean K
4 reasons why the ASX 200 will struggle in September
Replies
8
Views
600
DannyB0000
R
My strategy/plan going forward
4 5 6
Replies
107
Views
14K
divs4ever
September 2025 DDD
2 3 4
Replies
65
Views
4K
ducati916
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more...