The West has lost its freedom of speech

luutzu · 12 April 2015

The coloured folks are only Aussies by law, the true blue Aussies are Aussies that came from Europe - and Europeans with white skin, not the olive type or curly greasy hair either.

To be fair though, I am sometime surprised that my brother in law and my siblings don't know much about Vietnam at all. They look asian but that's about as Asian as they get - Vietnam is just one of those country they might visit one day for holiday.

Tink · 12 April 2015

I will wait for The Greens to answer that, before I give my reply, if explod wants to, being a Greens member.

For your information, VC, I treat all people the same, so get off your PC bandwagon, it doesn't work with me anymore.

The Greens are the masters of silencing the people.

Good for your grandmother, she can say whatever she likes.
We live in a free country where people are allowed to express their thoughts.

I hope you listen to her stories, as these elderly have a lot of wisdom and knowledge to share.

SirRumpole · 12 April 2015

Value Collector said:
How so, many of them believe that eternal hell fire awaits people that abandon the faith.

And Muslims are threatened or killed when they try to leave Islam, but people leave the Catholic church all the time without being intimidated later on.

SirRumpole · 12 April 2015

luutzu said:
T

To be fair though, I am sometime surprised that my brother in law and my siblings don't know much about Vietnam at all. They look asian but that's about as Asian as they get - Vietnam is just one of those country they might visit one day for holiday.

It's the same with most migrants. There are family ties in the "old Country" that people want to catch up with sometimes, but otherwise most had good reasons for leaving in the first place and don't want to go back.

Tink · 12 April 2015

Agree with both your posts, Rumpole.

Value Collector · 12 April 2015

Tink said:
Good for your grandmother, she can say whatever she likes.
We live in a free country where people are allowed to express their thoughts.

I hope you listen to her stories, as these elderly have a lot of wisdom and knowledge to share.

Offcourse she has the right to say what she likes, and I have the right to point of to her that not only are some of her beliefs factually incorrect, but they are also unfair and some what immoral.

I love my grandmother, and probably speak to her more than any other of her grandchildren, and have many conversations about the past and how things were, but when she gets a bit racist, I point it out.

I still don't get what you meant by your comment about not understanding why the greens see muslims as australians, I know you are saying you treat everyone the same, but that comment makes me think you don't see muslims or perhaps groups of other origins as real australians.

Value Collector · 12 April 2015

SirRumpole said:
And Muslims are threatened or killed when they try to leave Islam, but people leave the Catholic church all the time without being intimidated later on.

Yes some muslims are threatened or killed, some aren't, some christian groups also threaten violence also, though in the developed world less so now.

how ever, I would argue that the threat of eternal punishment for infinity in hell, is far worse than any temporary punishment on this earth.

Hence people that have been lied to from birth and hold genuine strong religious beliefs as a result, are captives of their faith, So a devoted nun is being obsessed, even if it seem voluntary.

Value Collector · 12 April 2015

SirRumpole said:
It's the same with most migrants. There are family ties in the "old Country" that people want to catch up with sometimes, but otherwise most had good reasons for leaving in the first place and don't want to go back.

That's not the point of the discussion, the point is some people look at a person of Asian appearance ( or in rinks case a person of Islamic faith)and think they are not real australians just because of the colour of their skin (or head dress), regardless of the family background and how many generations they have lived here.

Asians have been migrating here since before the gold rush, muslims almost as long, So some family history's date back 6 or 7 generations, to say they are not aussie is just stupid.

But also, the fact that they don't want to go back to the country they migrated from means nothing, because you could say the same with the early settlers who chose to leave the hardships of 1800's industrial England, or post war Germany, or the famines in Ireland.

Tink would probably have no issues accepting a person who was born in sydney, but who's grandparents moved here after after ww2 as being a 100% australian, but if the person wears a hijab, suddenly she has doubts, but a nuns veil would be fine. How is that not silly.

SirRumpole · 12 April 2015

That's not the point of the discussion, the point is some people look at a person of Asian appearance ( or in rinks case a person of Islamic faith)and think they are not real australians just because of the colour of their skin (or head dress), regardless of the family background and how many generations they have lived here.

I think that it is the case that a lot of migrants are not "true" Australians, in the sense that if war broke out and they were being asked to fight for this country they would pack up their bags and go back to where they came from. There is nothing particularly wrong with that, a lot of Australian ex pats living in the US or Britain would probably do the same.

But f you take up citizenship of another country, then you are expected to be loyal to your adopted country. I doubt if the people now fighting for ISIS or the people who influence them have any concept of national loyalty. We only find out who is loyal when the chips are down, and people are asked to put their lives on the line for their country.

luutzu · 12 April 2015

SirRumpole said:
I think that it is the case that a lot of migrants are not "true" Australians, in the sense that if war broke out and they were being asked to fight for this country they would pack up their bags and go back to where they came from. There is nothing particularly wrong with that, a lot of Australian ex pats living in the US or Britain would probably do the same.

But f you take up citizenship of another country, then you are expected to be loyal to your adopted country. I doubt if the people now fighting for ISIS or the people who influence them have any concept of national loyalty. We only find out who is loyal when the chips are down, and people are asked to put their lives on the line for their country.

I don't think that's true.

You will always have people who will pack their bags, or who stay put but find ways to keep their kids out of real danger... and they tend to be people with a lot of money and influence... more so than migrants or the working class who got no cash and no connection to go anywhere.

What makes a person loyal to a country anyway? Not race or religion... but whether or not the country is worth saving to them... does the country and the government benefit them or not; does the country and the people see them as one of their own. The moment the gov't doesn't care, make policies that marginalise them and benefits the rich or the favoured race... the neglected will not care and will not fight.. .and if they do, it will be against the gov't. Hence you have civil wars, rebellions and general chaos.

So it's not about migrants or new or old arrivals. People are self serving. And it's the poor and the new migrants that have less choice and more heart to fight for it.

Look at China... we'd probably all think they're just the one people... but they're not. There's the 8 to 10 major states fighting each other for 500 years until Chin united them and committed mass genocide and forced assimilation and standardisation on the rest... then Han took over and expanded... and they were just about 1/3 their current size. There's probably about 100 different ethnic groups in China today but they all look the same, haha.

But if you pick on the Han majority or the Manchurian... the other Chinese wouldn't just stand around and let it happen. I'm pretty sure the same for Australians here... the White as well as the coloured folks.

SirRumpole · 12 April 2015

What makes a person loyal to a country anyway?

I'm reminded of the old saying

"always keep tight hold of nurse, for fear of finding something worse"

Hillaire Belloc

bellenuit · 12 April 2015

South African author ZP Dala has been taken to a mental institution in reprisal for her comments about Salman Rushdie

http://bookslive.co.za/blog/2015/04...refusing-to-renounce-salman-rushdie-comments/

Value Collector · 12 April 2015

SirRumpole said:
I think that it is the case that a lot of migrants are not "true" Australians, in the sense that if war broke out and they were being asked to fight for this country they would pack up their bags and go back to where they came from. There is nothing particularly wrong with that, a lot of Australian ex pats living in the US or Britain would probably do the same.

But f you take up citizenship of another country, then you are expected to be loyal to your adopted country. I doubt if the people now fighting for ISIS or the people who influence them have any concept of national loyalty. We only find out who is loyal when the chips are down, and people are asked to put their lives on the line for their country.

As a soldier who has served over seas myself, I can tell you that you are wrong. My parents migrated here from New Zealand 2 years before I was born, and both myself who was born here and my sibling who was born in NZ have served ( We are of Anglo appearance though, so perhaps tink classes us as true aussies, if we were from Japan maybe she wouldn't).

While I served I served along many people from migrant families, even in the Sas and other special operations groups there are members who were not born in Australia.

I dont think race or where your parents were born is a deciding factor.

Value Collector · 12 April 2015

Can migrant families serve a nation at time of war?

if anyone doubts their ability read a bit about Billy Sing, a man of chinese decent who had to lie about his race, while recruiters turned a blind eye because of his rifle skills, to get to Galipoli, and became a renowned sniper, saving many Australian lives.

http://http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Sing

. William Edward 'Billy' Sing, DCM (2 March 1886 – 19 May 1943) was a part Chinese Australian soldier who served in the Australian Imperial Force during World War I, best known as a sniper during the Gallipoli Campaign.[1][2][3][4][a] He took at least 150 confirmed kills during that campaign, and may have had over 200 kills in total.[3][4] One contemporary estimate put his tally at close to 300 kills.[5] Towards the end of the war, Sing married a Scottish woman, but the relationship did not last long.[2] Following work in sheep farming and gold mining, he died in relative poverty and obscurity in Brisbane during World War II.[2][6]

Migrants have been among Australian troops in probably every conflict in our history.

explod · 12 April 2015

Tink said:
The Greens are the masters of silencing the people.

.

Hi Tink, would you care to provide an explanation with some examples to back this statement.

luutzu · 12 April 2015

SirRumpole said:
I'm reminded of the old saying

"always keep tight hold of nurse, for fear of finding something worse"

Hillaire Belloc

Just read that poem. I think I know what you mean... that's me for barely passing General English.
Saw links to Robert Frost's A Road Less Travel and that other William Henley's Invictus... good stuff.

---
reminds me of the Bush vs Kerry election where Bush Jr. and Dick Cheney, one went AWOL serving in the National Guards and the other took leave to "study" during the Vietnam War.. both call Kerry a traitor for having gone on a few tours in Vietnam then speak out against it... and both became president, passing the Patriot Act... whose author and lead counsel was a Vietnamese American.

Kinda funny when you think about it.

luutzu · 12 April 2015

Value Collector said:
As a soldier who has served over seas myself, I can tell you that you are wrong. My parents migrated here from New Zealand 2 years before I was born, and both myself who was born here and my sibling who was born in NZ have served ( We are of Anglo appearance though, so perhaps tink classes us as true aussies, if we were from Japan maybe she wouldn't).

While I served I served along many people from migrant families, even in the Sas and other special operations groups there are members who were not born in Australia.

I dont think race or where your parents were born is a deciding factor.

You're not SAS are you?

SirRumpole · 12 April 2015

Migrants have been among Australian troops in probably every conflict in our history.

I have no doubt about that, but I wonder how many Muslims are serving with the Australian Armed forces fighting against ISIS, and how many would suddenly become "conscientious objectors" if conscription were re-introduced to fight against a Muslim enemy.

Using New Zealanders as an example in this case is pretty thin as you are not burdened with a religious philosophy that trumps national loyalty.

And I also wonder how comfortable you would be serving alongside Muslims given the number of Coalition troops killed by renegades they were supposed to be training.

Tink · 12 April 2015

Hi explod,

I did ask you this -

Tink said:
So, explod, why do the Greens dislike Christianity, yet this country was built on their principles.

The Greens website has photos of Muslims as Australian women.

What is that all about?

This is where this conversation has come from, and also about the hijab, and the Muslims asking that people understand how they feel, asking others to wear it.
As I said, I don't remember any other faith asking the same, be it buddhists etc, we all just moved along enjoying the country we live in.

VC, I already said, I treat all people the same, so I appreciate you not turning it around.

I don't need your PC rules to tell me how to be with people, we grew up with Christian principles, what this country was built on.
You keep forgetting that.

Yes, it does concern me, seeing special holidays like Christmas and Easter that are on our Christian calendar being compromised, because of PC, and people trying to change the fabric of our society.

As the title says, The West has lost its freedom of speech

cynic · 12 April 2015

luutzu said:
The coloured folks are only Aussies by law, the true blue Aussies are Aussies that came from Europe - and Europeans with white skin, not the olive type or curly greasy hair either.

To be fair though, I am sometime surprised that my brother in law and my siblings don't know much about Vietnam at all. They look asian but that's about as Asian as they get - Vietnam is just one of those country they might visit one day for holiday.

Actually, I don't find that terribly surprising. Whilst I'm Australian born, I know precious little about my father and grandmother's countries of birth.

Recently I was rather amused to observe the behaviour of a waitress during a visit to an oriental restaurant.

Patrons of oriental appearance were being greeted in a Chinese dialect, and those of Western appearance were greeted in English.

One "celestial" gentleman, upon receiving the Chinese greeting, replied in Australian accented English: "I'm sorry, but I don't speak Chinese."

That's the great thing about racism! It's non discriminatory! It can manifest in any race!

The West has lost its freedom of speech

luutzu

Tink

SirRumpole

SirRumpole

Tink

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

SirRumpole

luutzu

SirRumpole

bellenuit

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

explod

explod

luutzu

luutzu

SirRumpole

Tink

cynic

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