Hopeful said:What's wrong with this simple plan. I'm new at this so be gentle.
Buy stock XYZ for $20 and write a call option with a strike of say $22 (a 10% move will get you exercised). Then, set your stop loss at the current price minus the premium you recieved. So, if the stock drops past BE you exit the whole position without a loss, but if it goes up then you win. It's a "can't lose" trade!
Of course, if the stock opens with a huge gap then you get your arze handed to you. And then there are brokerage fees as well.
What else am I missing? This is a kind of "dorathy dixer" question to elicit some responses, don't panic I'm not going to do this just yet. Cheers. Humor me.
wayneL said:Firstly, you will get SFA for the call that far OTM... probably only a few cents, depending on volatility
Secondly, it doesn't work that way anyway. If the stock starts moving down well before expiry, theta will not have had time to deliver you any advantage.
http://www.hoadley.net/options/strategymodel.htm
Hopeful said:If it goes down I want to be out anyway. The call premium gives you a little bit of room before BE. So that's the downside - getting stopped out. If the figures were a little more realistic:
RIG (a US stock) is currently trading at 70.45 , Oct calls with a 75 strike are selling for 1.90. So then I hit the bid and short the call then go buy the stock. If it goes down to 70.45 minus 1.90 = 68.55 then I exit with a small loss (brokerage). On the other hand if it ends up anywhere above 68.55 at expiry then I'm laughing (yes, American style means I can get assigned...).
I'm afraid I think I missed your point. I can see two likely results, one positive and one even (I can also see disaster as well, but that would be so without writing a call anyway).
bunyip said:Wayne
I know very little about options.
Forgetting for the moment about how options can be used to hedge an open position - considering them purely from the angle of opening and closing trades where your aim is simply to take a position, unload the position some time down the track, and hopefully pull a decent profit or at worst, a small loss.
For the style of trading I've outlined, do options really offer any significant advantage over simply buying or shorting CFD's?
Bunyip
swingstar said:wayneL will go into specifics as far as better profit potential (volatility increasing etc.), but I think you have a similar style to me (i.e. hold for a few days to weeks), which on the ASX, if you get a lot of opportunities it's probably best to trade CFDs. CFDs usually have much smaller spreads and you don't have to wait half hour into open for a market.
bunyip said:Wayne
I know very little about options.
Forgetting for the moment about how options can be used to hedge an open position - considering them purely from the angle of opening and closing trades where your aim is simply to take a position, unload the position some time down the track, and hopefully pull a decent profit or at worst, a small loss.
For the style of trading I've outlined, do options really offer any significant advantage over simply buying or shorting CFD's?
Bunyip
bunyip said:Wayne
I know very little about options.
Forgetting for the moment about how options can be used to hedge an open position - considering them purely from the angle of opening and closing trades where your aim is simply to take a position, unload the position some time down the track, and hopefully pull a decent profit or at worst, a small loss.
For the style of trading I've outlined, do options really offer any significant advantage over simply buying or shorting CFD's?
Bunyip
Magdoran said:I went through one example with a trader (which was representative of the general findings overall) where the option slightly outperformed the CFD in terms of reward, but was about 5% the exposure - yes, that’s 20 times less exposed - than the CFD position. But each underlying and options market may differ significantly depending on a host of variables, so this comparison can vary widely.
Magdoran said:While sometimes good options trades are not available for a stock/index/commodity future/Forex (in which case perhaps using a CFD may be the better alternative in some cases), generally I have found that if you have sufficient options knowledge, options can significantly outperform CFDs in terms of risk to reward, if the appropriate strategy is available (sometimes appropriate options aren’t available maybe due to volatility problems, or liquidity/open interest, etc).
I went through one example with a trader (which was representative of the general findings overall) where the option slightly outperformed the CFD in terms of reward, but was about 5% the exposure - yes, that’s 20 times less exposed - than the CFD position. But each underlying and options market may differ significantly depending on a host of variables, so this comparison can vary widely.
Another issue is that many people using CFDs don’t understand their real exposure. If you’re using a 5% margin for collateral, that means that you are borrowing 95% of the full amount the position is worth.
Another issue about CFDs is the exposure to having your account cleaned out. This happens if a position moves against you, and there are not sufficient funds available to cover the growing margin requirement. I’ve heard of CFD traders having their account cleaned out on an intra day spike, only to see the stock rally up past where it opened and continue on in their direction. But if the account can’t meet the margin requirements at any time, the position is automatically exited at a maximum loss to the account. This is a real problem if it is not managed, and in my view a major disadvantage compared to options.
With options, there are a myriad of ways to control risk that are not available with CFDs. Firstly, even using a simple long call or put, the risk is limited to the initial premium (plus OCH fees and brokerage). You can’t lose more than you paid. Then there are a range of spreads available to cap risk, each with application depending on the market conditions.
While I understand when I hear the response that CFDS are ostensibly simpler than options, I would argue that in the broadest perspective that this is a misconception. CFDs are actually more complex than they seem. Sure they are perhaps less complex than options, but they’re quite dangerous in the wrong hands, and certainly less flexible, and arguably can be much more exposed to risk. Sure, it’s harder to work out an options strategy at first, but if you don’t do the due diligence, you’re really leaving yourself open to potential ruin.
Hello Swingstar,swingstar said:Hi Mag
I've had quite a few 'aha' moments thanks to your posts recently. Wow, was I thinking 'mechanically'...
I am reconsidering CFDs. As I mentioned above, the main advantages for me are smaller spreads and being able to close a position in the morning at open, without having to wait for MMs (it might be different using a full service broker, since I've seen it mentioned that they can contact MMs directly?). I've been stuck with options a few times when there has been no market and hence no way to offload a losing position.
My experience is limited to the ASX though... markets are more liquid in the US and I think I've seen Wayne mention that MMs have to provide a market at open.
Nevertheless I agree (or rather am enlightened, lol) that it obviously depends on the situation. With my style, it would probably be beneficial buying liquid options, and CFDs for stocks with no or thin options. Obviously the more knowledge I gain of options the more uh options I have and strategies I can utilise (and not just relying on directional movement).
Cheers
Hello Wayne,wayneL said:Great post Mag,
I just wanted to pick up on this point and emphasize it.
I have often made the point that options are an instrument primarily created for the transferance of risk. In the case above, that risk has been primarily tranferred to someone elseCombined with a good general trading edge, the other smaller risks assumed by taking on an option position (theta, vega) become de-accentuated.
Superfluous comment I know, but I'm bored ####less on this holiday (in the US) monday.
Cheers
Hello Bunyip,bunyip said:Magdoran
There's a lot of good information in your post.
Thanks for going to so much trouble.
I agree that traders can come unstuck very quickly if they use leverage recklessly.
Thanks again.
Bunyip
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