The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

If the East Coast went down totally, how would we restart and how long is it likely to take before it would be back working correctly.......................

I personally don't know, I could probably work it out for the West coast, as that's where I live and worked.

The East coast is a lot more complex, it covers a much larger area, has a lot broader spread of generation types, owners etc, way too many moving parts. Lol

 

[Smurf1976]

Firstly a transmission map for that part of the world showing the big picture that it's highly interconnected, far more so than Australia or for that matter the US.

Colour code as follows:

Green = 220kV
Orange = 330kV
Red = 400kV
Dark red = 500kV
Blue = 750kV
Pink = DC transmission

For reference in Australia we also have an assortment of transmission voltages 500kV, 330kV, 275kV, 220kV, 132kV and 110kV. Due to our low population density we also have some 66kV, normally a distribution voltage not transmission, used in a transmission-like manner in some situations.

To keep this in layman's terms I'll point out that electricity flowing between different voltages is not of itself a problem, since transformers sort that out. There are however very real differences in the practical capacity of transmission lines versus their operating voltage and that is not linear.

Now looking closely at the border between France and Spain, I note that multiple lines on both sides are not shown as crossing the border. Whether that's due to topography, geology, historic political factors or a conscious engineering decision I'm unaware of, but bottom line is they do not connect. .

That being so, the actual connection between the two countries, and thus between Spain, Portgual and the rest of Europe, is quite limited.

I also draw attention to two DC links shown to form part of Spain - France transmission. Their existence isn't necessarily a problem, but it does raise a flag:

 

[qldfrog]

Firstly a transmission map for that part of the world showing the big picture that it's highly interconnected, far more so than Australia or for that matter the US.

Colour code as follows:

Green = 220kV
Orange = 330kV
Red = 400kV
Dark red = 500kV
Blue = 750kV
Pink = DC transmission

View attachment 198690

View attachment 198691

Now looking closely at the border between France and Spain, I note that multiple lines on both sides are not shown as crossing the border. Whether that's due to topography, geology, historic political factors or a conscious engineering decision I'm unaware of, but bottom line is they do not connect. .

That being so, the actual connection between the two countries, and thus between Spain, Portgual and the rest of Europe, is quite limited.

I also draw attention to two DC links shown to form part of Spain - France transmission. Their existence isn't necessarily a problem, but it does raise a flag:


View attachment 198692

The french spanish border follows the Pyrenees range summits, few crossings, 2000+m asl except on both seasides, and moreover very low population density but for coastal areas
I believe this explains the network

 

[Smurf1976]

The french spanish border follows the Pyrenees range summits, few crossings, 2000+m asl except on both seasides, and moreover very low population density but for coastal areas
I believe this explains the network

Sounds like a pretty good reason.

I've been to France but never that far south so haven't seen the area. But if it's mountains etc then that explains why they didn't put too many lines through.

 

[sptrawler]

Sounds like a pretty good reason.

I've been to France but never that far south so haven't seen the area. But if it's mountains etc then that explains why they didn't put too many lines through.

The other half is an avid cycle nut, so when we went to France and rented a car.

I downloaded the tour de France 2011 route that Cadel Evans won and thought that would be nice to follow.

Trust me if you go to France, that map route was amazing a lot of the Pyreneese, walled towns, amazing sights like the viaduc de Millau, sorry off topic, but just one of those bits of info you have to pass on.

I'll just add, if you catch the Eurostar from U.K to Paris, get the local train out to Versailles and rent/ drop off the car there, driving in Paris is mental. Lol

Sorry Joe off topic, mop and bucket, aisle 7.

Everyone else move on, nothing to censure here.

 

[IFocus]

Impressive the amount of 500 kV line must have the load to use it?

 

[sptrawler]

Impressive the amount of 500 kV line must have the load to use it?

From the snippets, it sounds like Portugual's grid load is similar to W.A and Spain is similar to the East Coast of Australia.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/dont-blame-renewables-spains-power-outage-bousso-2025-04-30/

 

[sptrawler]

What I have trouble reconciling is comments like this .

Data from Spanish grid operator Red Electrica shows that on Monday solar generation dropped at 12:30 p.m. from around 18 GW to just under 5 GW by 1.35 p.m., so this accounted for the vast majority of the overall drop. But it remains unknown why this occurred or why it caused the entire system to collapse so rapidly.

over a period of one hour, the renewable grid would have those sort of change in generation, over the sunset period, every day.
So why was it a problem?

 

[sptrawler]

Well it sounds like, it is $hit or bust time, great now that Labor are in with a majority there is no excuses, let's move on asap.

“There is no going back:” AEMO bids goodbye to baseload grid and spins high renewable future

AEMO says there is “no going back” to a baseload and peaking power system, but for the moment prefers spinning machines over battery inverters for system security.

reneweconomy.com.au

 

[qldfrog]

 

[Smurf1976]

Impressive the amount of 500 kV line must have the load to use it?

The bright red throughout western Europe is 400kV, the 500kV being the dark red in Russia.

 

[Smurf1976]

View attachment 198726

The biggest red flag I'm seeing here isn't that they've had a cascade system collapse, that bit is clearly what's happened, but there's either genuine confusion or an intentional cover up surrounding it.

It's one thing to have the system collapse and to not understand what caused it. It's quite something else to be producing data showing generation running and load being supplied then to say oh no that wasn't real.

That lack of accurate data makes any analysis highly problematic beyond the observation that there's clearly been a cascade system collapse which in layman's terms is the second worst case scenario. The worst being physical destruction of equipment.

In terms of system operation since restoration, assuming the data is correct, the most notable change is very much lower solar PV generation. Very roughly it's been cut 40% or so. Maybe that's due to weather but it does stand out as a change.

The other notable change is lower nuclear generation and and extended period before a restart commenced. The incident occurred on 28 April, first nuclear output on 2 May so 4 days later and still nowhere near fully restored. The reasons for that I'm unware of, but it does stand out.

For the rest, gas and hydro did the heavy lifting in terms of initial supply restoration along with a contribution from wind, solar, biomass, diesel and of course supply from France and Morocco. But hydro and gas were the big ones. Coal, a minor electricity source in Spain, was back up and running early on the 29th.

That's all assuming data is correct.....

 

[qldfrog]

The biggest red flag I'm seeing here isn't that they've had a cascade system collapse, that bit is clearly what's happened, but there's either genuine confusion or an intentional cover up surrounding it.

It's one thing to have the system collapse and to not understand what caused it. It's quite something else to be producing data showing generation running and load being supplied then to say oh no that wasn't real.

That lack of accurate data makes any analysis highly problematic beyond the observation that there's clearly been a cascade system collapse which in layman's terms is the second worst case scenario. The worst being physical destruction of equipment.

In terms of system operation since restoration, assuming the data is correct, the most notable change is very much lower solar PV generation. Very roughly it's been cut 40% or so. Maybe that's due to weather but it does stand out as a change.

The other notable change is lower nuclear generation and and extended period before a restart commenced. The incident occurred on 28 April, first nuclear output on 2 May so 4 days later and still nowhere near fully restored. The reasons for that I'm unware of, but it does stand out.

For the rest, gas and hydro did the heavy lifting in terms of initial supply restoration along with a contribution from wind, solar, biomass, diesel and of course supply from France and Morocco. But hydro and gas were the big ones. Coal, a minor electricity source in Spain, was back up and running early on the 29th.

That's all assuming data is correct.....

If it helps, a Southern France nuclear plant has been stopped and is now being under full check for damage as a direct result of the spanish blackout.
Not sure why serious damage would result from emergency stop but this is what it is.
I so assume the Spanish nuclear plants would have behaved similarly and so need full check before restart

 

[qldfrog]

FYI

Blackout triggered French reactor shutdown – nuclear executive

The reactor shutdown at 12:34 CET on Monday as a safety precaution due to a “sharp drop in frequency on the primary pumps while France was importing 1 GW of power from Spain”, Fontana told an upper house hearing, with parliament questioning him ahead of his expected appointment as CEO of

montelnews.com

 

[sptrawler]

Spain-Portugal blackouts: what actually happened, and what can Iberia and Europe learn from it?

By analysing minute-by minute data, we can pinpoint the moment where it all went wrong for Spain’s power grid.

theconversation.com

 

[qldfrog]

Spain-Portugal blackouts: what actually happened, and what can Iberia and Europe learn from it?

By analysing minute-by minute data, we can pinpoint the moment where it all went wrong for Spain’s power grid.

theconversation.com

I find it weird the author is at a loss about why solar disconnected...i bet it is rooftop solar whose millions of inverters will disconnect automatically if they can not sync on a clean 50 htz wave.
That very functionality is used for safety..switching on blackout but also to remotely disconnect solar by throwing a different frequency
Clear as spring water

 

[Knobby22]

I find it weird the author is at a loss about why solar disconnected...i bet it is rooftop solar whose millions of inverters will disconnect automatically if they can not sync on a clean 50 htz wave.
That very functionality is used for safety..switching on blackout but also to remotely disconnect solar by throwing a different frequency
Clear as spring water

In the Melbourne CBD and surrounds, particularly Port Melbourne where there is lots of warehouse and factory roof mounted solar power, CitiPower has the ability to switch off this power.

With grid instability I suspect that a lot of the solar power was disconnected automatically but as the nuclear plant had already disconnected it just made things worse.

 

[SirRumpole]

Are we missing a trick with wave power?

 

[qldfrog]

Are we missing a trick with wave power?

I lost money on the asx with a Perth based from memory attempt, great to power beacon etc, otherwise a waste of effort
Corrosion, mechanical challenge, connection to grid ...
But plenty of tax money to feed the dream again and again

 

[sptrawler]

Are we missing a trick with wave power?

Six years ago, the West Australian Govt cancelled a deal for the company to build a wave farm in the Great Southern region near Albany.16 Apr 2019.

Further strife for Carnegie as value of 'world-leading' wave technology slashed

It was valued at $83 million in June 2017, but Carnegie Clean Energy's CETO wave technology is now worth just $15 million, despite governments pouring tens of millions into the supposedly world-leading company.

www.abc.net.au

It did stay afloat.

Carnegie Clean Energy scrapes together funds to recapitalise wave business

Carnegie relies on third party investors to help reach minimum fund raising target for the re-capitalisation of its wave energy business.

reneweconomy.com.au

Carnegie has since sought to raise funds that would allow the company to re-focus its efforts on the development and commercialisation of the CETO wave energy technology.

Carnegie’s re-capitalisation plan aimed to raise a minimum of $5.5 million in new shareholder capital that would allow the company to undertake a more streamlined approach to research and development and hoped to raise up to $11.5 million which would have provided the company a greater buffer in working capital, better manage historical debts and allow for an expanded research and development program.


March 2025

Carnegie secures more funding for Spain wave energy project

Australian wave energy developer Carnegie Clean Energy has secured more than $545,000 in funding to push forward its plans to deliver and operate a 400 kW version of its ‘CETO’ wave power generation system in waters off the coast of Spain.

www.pv-magazine-australia.com

Australian wave energy developer Carnegie Clean Energy has secured more than $545,000 in funding to push forward its plans to deliver and operate a 400 kW version of its ‘CETO’ wave power generation system in waters off the coast of Spain.