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The future of energy generation and storage

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qldfrog said:
That was then, i still remember a previous ALP Qld state government raping the energex coffers of money due for grid maintenance and asking special dividends to fill partly one of their never ending deficit.
Click to expand...
What made this possible is what was referred to at the time as "full ministerial control".

What it means is giving the relevant minister the power to override the decisions of anyone else which opened the door to two key problems. First is doing things at odds with sound practice technically. Second is raiding the finances.

My view is Sir John Monash had it right with his insistence that the correct, durable structure for a utility under government ownership is one where the utility conducts its own affairs on a day to day basis but requires parliamentary approval for any non-routine new investment. That kept the politicians in the role of overseer rather than doer, they'd be questioning a proposal and the alternatives to it, they could either approve it or reject it, but they weren't able to simply change the words on the page to their liking.

Yes that approach does lead to the occasional conflict but overall I'd say it's the right one, the benefits outweigh the downsides. Same goes for other authorities that ought be beyond political influence - water, CSIRO, BOM and so on. Fair enough for government to have the power to accept or reject, but they should not have the power to change the words on the page for political reasons. If there's a disagreement between the authority and the government over what ought be done, or government wants to take the money, that ought be laid bare for the public to see and judge via the normal process of debate.

Related to that is a need to restore integrity in broader terms. In short we need more people like Monash and a lot fewer "slippery" types in society. That goes for everything, we'd be in a much better position with all this if boring, methodical people were in charge of making it happen rather than those who make impressive speeches then fail to deliver. :2twocents
 
www.theage.com.au

Ten Victorian towns to lose piped gas as operator says network is too expensive

Solstice Energy says it will switch off its gas pipelines in the affected towns by the end of next year.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au

Residents in 10 Victorian towns will be forced to use bottled gas or electrify next year after the operator said the local pipelines had become too expensive to run.

Solstice Energy, which has taken over operations previously under the name Tas Gas, told customers on Monday it would switch off its gas networks across regional Victorian towns by the end of 2026.

About 1100 customers will be affected and will receive compensation, depending on how much gas they use. They will be supported to transition from compressed natural gas (CNG) to bottled liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) or to electrify.

The affected towns are Marong, Terang, Lakes Entrance, Orbost, Heathcote, Nathalia, Swan Hill, Maldon, Robinvale and Kerang.

Marong, near Bendigo, is the biggest residential customer affected as the town accounts for about one-quarter of the 1100 customers.

Under the current arrangements, Solstice trucks CNG to a central compression station and then distributes it to homes and businesses through a local gas network in each town.

The Solstice Energy spokesperson said the company would help fund and co-ordinate the switch to bottled LPG for customers who still wanted to use their existing heaters and cooktops. The company will also assist in some of the costs for those who choose to electrify their properties.

ALSO FROM THE ARTICLE:

The development comes after the Allan government scaled back plans to force households to replace gas appliances with electric alternatives when they reach their end of life.

Gas heating and cooktops have been excluded from the scheme. Gas hot water will be phased out from 2027 but with exemptions for homes where transitioning is too expensive or difficult.

Stricter rules will apply for rental properties from March 1, 2027. Hot water systems and heaters will need to be replaced at the end of their lives with heat pumps and reverse-cycle air-conditioners.

At the start of a new lease, all rental properties will be required to have shower heads with four-star water efficiency ratings, and draught sealing installed on all external doors, windows and wall vents. Homes with no insulation must have ceiling insulation with a minimum heat resistance rating of 5.
 
sptrawler said:
www.theage.com.au

Ten Victorian towns to lose piped gas as operator says network is too expensive

Solstice Energy says it will switch off its gas pipelines in the affected towns by the end of next year.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au

Residents in 10 Victorian towns will be forced to use bottled gas or electrify next year after the operator said the local pipelines had become too expensive to run.

Solstice Energy, which has taken over operations previously under the name Tas Gas, told customers on Monday it would switch off its gas networks across regional Victorian towns by the end of 2026.

About 1100 customers will be affected and will receive compensation, depending on how much gas they use. They will be supported to transition from compressed natural gas (CNG) to bottled liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) or to electrify.

The affected towns are Marong, Terang, Lakes Entrance, Orbost, Heathcote, Nathalia, Swan Hill, Maldon, Robinvale and Kerang.

Marong, near Bendigo, is the biggest residential customer affected as the town accounts for about one-quarter of the 1100 customers.

Under the current arrangements, Solstice trucks CNG to a central compression station and then distributes it to homes and businesses through a local gas network in each town.

The Solstice Energy spokesperson said the company would help fund and co-ordinate the switch to bottled LPG for customers who still wanted to use their existing heaters and cooktops. The company will also assist in some of the costs for those who choose to electrify their properties.

ALSO FROM THE ARTICLE:

The development comes after the Allan government scaled back plans to force households to replace gas appliances with electric alternatives when they reach their end of life.

Gas heating and cooktops have been excluded from the scheme. Gas hot water will be phased out from 2027 but with exemptions for homes where transitioning is too expensive or difficult.

Stricter rules will apply for rental properties from March 1, 2027. Hot water systems and heaters will need to be replaced at the end of their lives with heat pumps and reverse-cycle air-conditioners.

At the start of a new lease, all rental properties will be required to have shower heads with four-star water efficiency ratings, and draught sealing installed on all external doors, windows and wall vents. Homes with no insulation must have ceiling insulation with a minimum heat resistance rating of 5.
Click to expand...
Fighting rent hike and housing crisis on all four it seems..
I know, a smartass comment, but still true.
 
And even in new Zealand, the same folly the same results but at least, they are acting on it
1000033422.jpg

I hope you can read it, there is a paywall on the online edition i tried
 
qldfrog said:
😂 It is ok, Blackrock will get his ROI
Click to expand...
Absolutely, they are just trying to jump the queue, for quaranteed Govt income.

The real problem is long duration storage, none of the energy players are buying into that, quick fix, shot in the arm batteries everyone wants a piece.
This is turning into a cluster pluck IMO, it wont be long before the coal will be forced to shut down, whether they want it or not.
Hopefully it ends well.
 
sptrawler said:
Absolutely, they are just trying to jump the queue, for quaranteed Govt income.

The real problem is long duration storage, none of the energy players are buying into that, quick fix, shot in the arm batteries everyone wants a piece.
This is turning into a cluster pluck IMO, it wont be long before the coal will be forced to shut down, whether they want it or not.
Hopefully it ends well.
Click to expand...
That is the aim imho, then next time we have a cold spell or heat wave, blackouts will be all around and the headlines will blame global warming and how thankful we should be having closed coal.but let's borrow and buy extra batteries,🤑
 
qldfrog said:
That is the aim imho, then next time we have a cold spell or heat wave, blackouts will be all around and the headlines will blame global warming and how thankful we should be having closed coal.but let's borrow and buy extra batteries,🤑
Click to expand...
Victoria proved politicians don't have to be smart. Lol
As for blackouts, hopefully they don't happen, but if they do the sooner they happen the better.
At least then a modicum of reality will enter the debate.
 
sptrawler said:
Victoria proved politicians don't have to be smart. Lol
As for blackouts, hopefully they don't happen, but if they do the sooner they happen the better.
At least then a modicum of reality will enter the debate.
Click to expand...
To understand what is happening , remember the global warming caused by human co2 emissions story is a religion.
It can not be debated, does not want or need scientific backing, has preachers and followers,some radical,some mainstream.
You can not change a religious devoted belief, rationality is futile, and there is no price too high to reach Nirvana.
The West lost religion, which became a laughing matter yet mankind, especially idle and defacto uneducated regardless of degrees needs a greater purpose and is still scared of deaths.
As such CC came at the perfect time, the fight has no limit, no frontier..we are the ones and no need to prove anything, plus easy black coloured ugly culprits (even of co2 is colourless invisible) .
As temperature rises really do increase atmospheric co2, it is nice to have an easy to understand story for the fidels.
A few Al Gore preachers and armies of zealot cult leaders in schools and a new business is born
So it will not stop until we self extinct and every dollar has been sucked.
So better get autonomy for your home and food.
 
qldfrog said:
To understand what is happening , remember the global warming caused by human co2 emissions story is a religion.
Click to expand...
Yet it was first "discovered" as means for global warming by various and unrelated SCIENTISTS well over a century ago. And this obscure 1965 Report, at Appendix Y4, is a harbinger of the further scienctific research - especially by the IPCC - on climate that focussed on the role of CO2.
qldfrog said:
It can not be debated, does not want or need scientific backing, has preachers and followers,some radical,some mainstream.
You can not change a religious devoted belief, rationality is futile, and there is no price too high to reach Nirvana.
Click to expand...
These are delusional views. There is constant baseless debate on climate change by deniers of science who use the idea of science as a religion to obscure evidential reality.
qldfrog said:
As temperature rises really do increase atmospheric co2, it is nice to have an easy to understand story for the fidels.
Click to expand...
This a refrain of the scientific illiterate. While it is true that at megaannum time scales the earth's proximity to the sun caused it to heat and release CO2, this has no bearing on the present decadal-level observable effects of CO2 adding to warming.
qldfrog said:
A few Al Gore preachers and armies of zealot cult leaders in schools and a new business is born
So it will not stop until we self extinct and every dollar has been sucked.
So better get autonomy for your home and food.
Click to expand...
Al Gore is not a scientist, has never written an academic paper on climate science, but remains in the minds of the scientific illiterate as a key figure making climate predictions. Today there are literally tens of thousands of scientific papers that cover climate change and its affects across a wide range of scientific fields. None point to a rosy future for the planet in the coming century, and most present indications of the negative consequences of rising temperature via increasing GHG levels.
 
IMO and it is only my opinion, as newer, more efficient energy sources come along, it really is our responsibily to change and utilise it.
The problem becomes an issue when it becomes a fanatical pursuit and society as a whole suffers.
 
sptrawler said:
IMO and it is only my opinion, as newer, more efficient energy sources come along, it really is our responsibily to change and utilise it.
The problem becomes an issue when it becomes a fanatical pursuit and society as a whole suffers.
Click to expand...
No issue with that, but not on a wild fanatical chase: we could switch to cheaper better for environment energy of course when suitable.
But this is not what is happening.
I am probably one of the few people here fully off grid, own sewerage, own rainwater, mostly own food production and own solar battery modern setup ..
so not anti green per say
But i am not running a smelter...
 
qldfrog said:
No issue with that, but not on a wild fanatical chase: we could switch to cheaper better for environment energy of course when suitable.
But this is not what is happening.
I am probably one of the few people here fully off grid, own sewerage, own rainwater, mostly own food production and own solar battery modern setup ..
so not anti green per say
But i am not running a smelter...
Click to expand...
Those that live in the cities will tell you how to do it. 🤣
 
rederob said:
Al Gore is not a scientist, has never written an academic paper on climate science, but remains in the minds of the scientific illiterate as a key figure making climate predictions.
Click to expand...
The problem in my view is the entire issue, indeed rather a lot of issues in society, have been captured by politics to such an extent the practical doers and hard sciences struggle to get a word into debate on issues that ultimately depend on them to resolve.

Pretty much everything the public hears on the subject is coming from politicians or journalists in their own words and that takes on an additional layer when it's considered virtually none of those politicians have qualifications in any hard science or even just practical experience.

You mentioned in another thread that Keating was the last PM with vision for Australia. Well how about that? He was also the last PM we had who didn't start out with a degree in law, economics or language. Hmm.....

That comes back to my point about the balance having swung too far toward the social sciences. There's a place for that certainly, we do need law, language and so on obviously, but in my view it's gone too far. That isn't a personal gripe with anyone, it's just an issue of balance.

With reference to investment, everyone on this forum would presumably be familiar with the concept of risk versus reward and that the old saying "no pain, no gain" is very true. With few exceptions that rarely occur, an investment with low risk also means low gains. If you want high or even medium gain then you need to manage risk rather than simply avoid it.

That we're struggling with energy, climate, industrialisation and building houses is in my view for much the same reason the Australian music industry is all but dead. There's a common theme in all of that.

We didn't have good tradespeople, technicians and so on just because of TAFE and we didn't have good musicians in mainstream music because of whatever institution offers them formal training. Rather we have them because from a young age children saw it was a thing, it interested them and they went with it through their teenage years into adulthood. Find anyone actually good at it and that's usually their story.

For those on the technical side it was reality that for just about every child either their own dad or a friend's dad worked on cars in the driveway. It's because the big and important businesses you heard adults talking about or you saw on TV were mostly industrial companies. It's because Dick Smith Electronics sold the Funway 1, 2 and 3 books and a bag of components to go with them, enabling you to build things that actually worked. It's because Tandy / Radio Shack sold a 150 in 1 project kit all on a big board with a bunch of wires to connect it all up and a full set of instructions on how to build all sorts of things with it that actually worked. It's because there were countless factories around and most of them provided opportunities for the public to come in and see how things were done. It's because even children's TV showed how real world things worked or were done thus making it obvious even to a child that technical and industrial stuff was big and important in society. It's because the Commodore 64 and similar early computers despite being primitive by modern standards were comprehensively documented in every aspect of how they worked meaning anyone so inclined could learn to write code. It's because appliances were expensive enough, and tamperproof screws weren't a thing, that trying to repair that broken hair dryer or toaster actually was worthwhile. It's because metalwork and woodwork were compulsory subjects in every high school. And so on, that's the society that created highly skilled trades, technicians and engineers - TAFE and university taught them the theory but it didn't plant the seed.

Same goes for other fields. Musicians in mainstream genres didn't emerge out of formal education. Australia had a music industry because just about every pub had live bands and commercial radio announcers read out a list several times each day of what band was playing where that night. Those who were good enough with potential to make it nationally or internationally could with a bit of effort get themselves on TV and exposed to a national audience, learning a lot themselves in the process. Meanwhile being a rock star was society's very definition of having made it. For children growing up knowing that was going on, hearing about it on radio and seeing it on TV on a regular basis, they could readily grasp that music was a big thing, it got them interested in it and plenty of bands were formed as a result. Obviously many didn't make it but end result is Australia had a pretty decent music industry.

Same concepts apply to a long list of things. Formal education provides the theory but it's growing up surrounded by it, seeing that it's a big deal and opportunities exist, that leads someone in that direction in the first place. Sports, acting, all sorts of things are like that.

The problem today is society's moved too far to the safety end of the spectrum. Too far to the low risk, low reward scenario that prioritises safety over progress. A mindset that leads managers in the public service to avoid making decisions and "leave it to the market" rather than rely on technical competence to get it right. A mindset that shut down the workshops and outsourced everything to cover the manager's *** against the risk of someone getting hurt. A mindset that sees business slapping their name on a generic imported product rather than manufacturing from scratch. A mindset that won't risk harming the natural environment even if that's what's required in order to save it in the long run. A mindset that says we can't let high school students use arc welders because they might hurt themselves and we can't have them building project kits in case they burn the house down or eat the components. A mindset that prioritises safety at every opportunity no matter what the long term price of doing so.

To the extent I'm privileged it's not due to inherited wealth, since I grew up poor. Nor is it due to race or gender - there's nothing I did that a girl with black skin wouldn't have also been able, in many cases required, to also do at school. No, to the extent I'm privileged it's because I grew up in a world that inspired me to learn and let me do so. A world that let me mess about with basic electronics in late primary school and build more serious things in high school. A world that taught me about physics with hands on practical demonstration despite the risks. A world that let me do work experience in heavy industry at the age of 15 - and they actually had me do some real electrical work it wasn't just watching.

That's the stuff that inspires kids with an inclination toward technical things. That's the stuff the legal mindset takes away due to the culture of safety at all costs due to the fear of a lawsuit. That's the huge price we're paying as a society for having shut down, outsourced and so on, it doesn't just mean we lost the factories or didn't build a power station, it's also cost us the next generation of skilled workers which leaves society struggling to get even the most basic things done well.

These two are worth watching:





Hence my view that all this needs to get back to hard not soft. It needs to get back to a focus on hard data, hard science, technical competency and achieving good outcomes rather than seeing everything through the prism of politics, optics, process and risk aversion.

That isn't a personal attack, I suspect we have quite different views there, but that's how I see it. :2twocents
 
Last edited:
Smurf1976 said:
The problem in my view is the entire issue, indeed rather a lot of issues in society, have been captured by politics to such an extent the practical doers and hard sciences struggle to get a word into debate on issues that ultimately depend on them to resolve.

Pretty much everything the public hears on the subject is coming from politicians or journalists in their own words and that takes on an additional layer when it's considered virtually none of those politicians have qualifications in any hard science or even just practical experience.

You mentioned in another thread that Keating was the last PM with vision for Australia. Well how about that? He was also the last PM we had who didn't start out with a degree in law, economics or language. Hmm.....

That comes back to my point about the balance having swung too far toward the social sciences. There's a place for that certainly, we do need law, language and so on obviously, but in my view it's gone too far. That isn't a personal gripe with anyone, it's just an issue of balance.

With reference to investment, everyone on this forum would presumably be familiar with the concept of risk versus reward and that the old saying "no pain, no gain" is very true. With few exceptions that rarely occur, an investment with low risk also means low gains. If you want high or even medium gain then you need to manage risk rather than simply avoid it.

That we're struggling with energy, climate, industrialisation and building houses is in my view for much the same reason the Australian music industry is all but dead. There's a common theme in all of that.

We didn't have good tradespeople, technicians and so on just because of TAFE and we didn't have good musicians in mainstream music because of whatever institution offers them formal training. Rather we have them because from a young age children saw it was a thing, it interested them and they went with it through their teenage years into adulthood. Find anyone actually good at it and that's usually their story.

For those on the technical side it was reality that for just about every child either their own dad or a friend's dad worked on cars in the driveway. It's because the big and important businesses you heard adults talking about or you saw on TV were mostly industrial companies. It's because Dick Smith Electronics sold the Funway 1, 2 and 3 books and a bag of components to go with them, enabling you to build things that actually worked. It's because Tandy / Radio Shack sold a 150 in 1 project kit all on a big board with a bunch of wires to connect it all up and a full set of instructions on how to build all sorts of things with it that actually worked. It's because there were countless factories around and most of them provided opportunities for the public to come in and see how things were done. It's because even children's TV showed how real world things worked or were done thus making it obvious even to a child that technical and industrial stuff was big and important in society. It's because the Commodore 64 and similar early computers despite being primitive by modern standards were comprehensively documented in every aspect of how they worked meaning anyone so inclined could learn to write code. It's because appliances were expensive enough, and tamperproof screws weren't a thing, that trying to repair that broken hair dryer or toaster actually was worthwhile. It's because metalwork and woodwork were compulsory subjects in every high school. And so on, that's the society that created highly skilled trades, technicians and engineers - TAFE and university taught them the theory but it didn't plant the seed.

Same goes for other fields. Musicians in mainstream genres didn't emerge out of formal education. Australia had a music industry because just about every pub had live bands and commercial radio announcers read out a list several times each day of what band was playing where that night. Those who were good enough with potential to make it nationally or internationally could with a bit of effort get themselves on TV and exposed to a national audience, learning a lot themselves in the process. Meanwhile being a rock star was society's very definition of having made it. For children growing up knowing that was going on, hearing about it on radio and seeing it on TV on a regular basis, they could readily grasp that music was a big thing, it got them interested in it and plenty of bands were formed as a result. Obviously many didn't make it but end result is Australia had a pretty decent music industry.

Same concepts apply to a long list of things. Formal education provides the theory but it's growing up surrounded by it, seeing that it's a big deal and opportunities exist, that leads someone in that direction in the first place. Sports, acting, all sorts of things are like that.

The problem today is society's moved too far to the safety end of the spectrum. Too far to the low risk, low reward scenario that prioritises safety over progress. A mindset that leads managers in the public service to avoid making decisions and "leave it to the market" rather than rely on technical competence to get it right. A mindset that shut down the workshops and outsourced everything to cover the manager's *** against the risk of someone getting hurt. A mindset that sees business slapping their name on a generic imported product rather than manufacturing from scratch. A mindset that won't risk harming the natural environment even if that's what's required in order to save it in the long run. A mindset that says we can't let high school students use arc welders because they might hurt themselves and we can't have them building project kits in case they burn the house down or eat the components. A mindset that prioritises safety at every opportunity no matter what the long term price of doing so.

To the extent I'm privileged it's not due to inherited wealth, since I grew up poor. Nor is it due to race or gender - there's nothing I did that a girl with black skin wouldn't have also been able, in many cases required, to also do at school. No, to the extent I'm privileged it's because I grew up in a world that inspired me to learn and let me do so. A world that let me mess about with basic electronics in late primary school and build more serious things in high school. A world that taught me about physics with hands on practical demonstration despite the risks. A world that let me do work experience in heavy industry at the age of 15 - and they actually had me do some real electrical work it wasn't just watching.

That's the stuff that inspires kids with an inclination toward technical things. That's the stuff the legal mindset takes away due to the culture of safety at all costs due to the fear of a lawsuit. That's the huge price we're paying as a society for having shut down, outsourced and so on, it doesn't just mean we lost the factories or didn't build a power station, it's also cost us the next generation of skilled workers which leaves society struggling to get even the most basic things done well.

These two are worth watching:





Hence my view that all this needs to get back to hard not soft. It needs to get back to a focus on hard data, hard science, technical competency and achieving good outcomes rather than seeing everything through the prism of politics, optics, process and risk aversion.

That isn't a personal attack, I suspect we have quite different views there, but that's how I see it. :2twocents
Click to expand...

Not much value from me here but
100%
I would also add:
Keating last PM with understanding of the physics of the world, and Costello the last one with at least some understanding of the finance/economy.
All clowns since, are not even good enough in areas where they should at least have some clues..
Ohh i forgot Swan as our economic genius 😭
So we now end up with what is a de facto typical PNG or subsaharian economy,with the matching power grid.
As iron mining declines, i give it one generation which is just 20y before even building roads and power network switch to foreign design and built with foreign skilled .it will stat with nuclear and our first purchase of reactors
Mining is/was the last area were Australians were trained in design and implementation of substantial civil work, structures and industrial power/control system.
Its programmed suicidal closure is the last nail.
We discussed what needed and will not not be done for our power grid.what we will see is adhoc bandages one after the others , imported battery systems with 15y life max and 2h capacity added at the cost of multiple coal plants each, etc etc until financial extinction
 
Smurf1976 said:
The problem in my view is the entire issue, indeed rather a lot of issues in society, have been captured by politics to such an extent the practical doers and hard sciences struggle to get a word into debate on issues that ultimately depend on them to resolve.
Click to expand...
Politics has never changed over200 years of science regarding the role of GHGs.
In this instance the principal problem lies in climate science denial sponsored mostly by the very deep pockets of the fossil fuel sector (in America it's often Exxon and the Koch brothers, and in Australia its the gas industry). They in turn buy representation in various legislatures across the globe and, through their unbridled wealth, peddle their lies in MSM and social media and through influential "think tanks".
This 6 year old YouTube video provides an excellent summation:



In terms of hard science and climate change, we have had excellent IPCC reports over the past 35 years covering the range of issues affecting climate, and the mitigation strategies that nations need to consider in order to reduce warming. Europe has been a global leader, Australia an also ran, and America so mired in division it will never get anywhere politically, although is achieving a great deal due to capitalism installing more RE generation than any other form.

In the Australian context we have had general consensus from our 2 major parties that climate science should be recognised as guiding us on how to tackle our increasing level of GHG emissions via our commitment to the Paris Agreement. The difference between the parties has been how to go about it, and not the science itself. As I noted earlier, at present the LNP is incapable of making adecision on net zero, and this is largely based on their view that RE sucks up too much in subsidies, aways forgetting the $10B+ annual subsidisation of the FF sector.

In summary, the science is clear and the hard data you talk about has been available for decades. On the other side of the fence deep seated climate science denial keeps raising its head, and this recent effort from Trump's administration reinforces the points I have made.
 

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