The beauty in religion

darkside · 13 June 2009

kennas said:
The Catholic church teaches that homosexuality is in the least wrong. Worst it's an abomination. My anecdotal experience is that the church can create a massive divide between parents and their siblings in regard to sexual orientation. I think it's something religion (particularly Catholicism) is perpetuating at the cost of a lot of individual and family happiness. I don't see a lot of beauty in this regard. I suppose my point is, that while you have had a wonderful experience with your faith, there are others who have been faithful all their lives, and it's actually resulted in great pain and suffering within their family. Are you sure you'd be OK if your daughter came out? I hope so.

Kennas , it's not just the Catholic Church that promote a divide in families if you do not adhere to their beliefs.My parents have been banned by the church from seeing my family and of course their grandchildren because i choose not to be brainwashed by this organisation, a few years ago my parents gave us the ultimatum of joining their church or never having contact with them again , they used the bible to justify their stand ;Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Judge other religions for not following Christ:
Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7
So since then they dont see their grandkids , dont do any family things , but the main thing is the church gave them this option , and they have missed many years of family life, because of this cult like brainwashing.

Sean K · 13 June 2009

gav said:
Are any of your family members devout muslims Kennas?

No

Tink said:
Just because I have my faith in the background, doesnt mean I go by all their rules - sheesh

I think its up to the individual and what makes them happy. My daughter knows some gay guys as friends, no big deal...
My family comes first.....

OK.

I don't think religious teaching is of the same approach though. Just doing 'what makes you happy' isn't in any of the scriptures that I've read.

I just asked this question because it's a very important international Catholic issue. There are many people who follow the law in regard to homosexuality, and it has created great hardships. Especially for the individuals who discover they are gay in a Catholic family. The level of guilt placed apon them is quite destructive. Maybe it's just a minority though and not worth discussing.

I'm glad it's no big deal for you Tink.

Tink · 13 June 2009

Thanks Kennas

I dont think they are as strict as they used to be - they have to change with the changeing times..
The people I know through the association in the Church are all pretty laid back..

gav · 13 June 2009

kennas said:
No

What if a family member decided to become a devout muslim? You may not agree with it, but I doubt you'd shun them out of your life - just as Tinks wouldn't shun their child if they were gay...

noirua · 13 June 2009

In some religions people, privately, no longer follow their chosen or born into religion that seriously. It does vary widely of course. This is on matters like going to church, synagogue etc., that regularly. Bothering to get married or really believing on views on abortion etc., they just trundle on regardless.

Unfortunately, in some countries, they take things more seriously and may put you in prison, stone you or chop off your head. That really means you have to go along with the teachings and beliefs, even if you believe it to be a load of rubbish, and few would risk the alternatives.

Iran may or may not loosen up and give a lead to other Muslim countries. We must wait and see.

gav · 13 June 2009

darkside said:
Kennas , it's not just the Catholic Church that promote a divide in families if you do not adhere to their beliefs.My parents have been banned by the church from seeing my family and of course their grandchildren because i choose not to be brainwashed by this organisation, a few years ago my parents gave us the ultimatum of joining their church or never having contact with them again , they used the bible to justify their stand ;Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Judge other religions for not following Christ:
Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7
So since then they dont see their grandkids , dont do any family things , but the main thing is the church gave them this option , and they have missed many years of family life, because of this cult like brainwashing.

That is truly awful.

I have many friends who are religious, I grew up in quite a religious community. They have not been banned from seeing me, or anyone else who grew up in the area who chooses not to be religious. I think the problem lays soley with your parents, in the end it was their decision...

Sean K · 13 June 2009

gav said:
What if a family member decided to become a devout muslim? You may not agree with it, but I doubt you'd shun them out of your life - just as Tinks wouldn't shun their child if they were gay...

There is no moral law being enforced on me that dictates I shun Muslims.

The Pope says homosexuals go to hell.

gav · 13 June 2009

kennas said:
There is no moral law being enforced on me that dictates I shun Muslims.

The Pope says homosexuals go to hell.

Yes but your own beliefs completely contradict the way a devout muslim lives. I doubt Tinks has any pressure to abandon her children if they were gay.

Sean K · 13 June 2009

gav said:
Yes but your own beliefs completely contradict the way a devout muslim lives. I doubt Tinks has any pressure to abandon her children if they were gay.

Yes, it would be my own secular beliefs shaped by what's best in the year 2009 in Melbourne. Or, Lima at the moment.

Gav, my point is (making it poorly obviously) that religion (Catholicism in this case) lays down some moral laws that it's follows must abide by. Some churches probably try to enforce this dogma more than others. The Catholic church's stance on homosexuality can not be changed. I've forgotten the term, but it's a policy that they can NEVER back down on. If you want to be a good Catholic, you have to follow this teaching. No ifs or butts according to the Vatican. This is a law interpreted from the Books, which probably made some sence in the ancient world. There was a good social reason for it I am sure.

While Tink, and I assume many many other Catholics are 'ok' with homosexuality, I'm just saying that there can be instances where this moral law causes some hardship when it need not. This whole discussion is just in responce to Tink saying that the Catholic Church has made her and her family very happy. I'm just providing the other perspective where the Catholic Church has actually destroyed a mother-daughter relationship because of their stance on homosexuality. That's all.

darkside · 13 June 2009

gav said:
That is truly awful.

I have many friends who are religious, I grew up in quite a religious community. They have not been banned from seeing me, or anyone else who grew up in the area who chooses not to be religious. I think the problem lays soley with your parents, in the end it was their decision...

Gav, your right it is absolutly disgracefull, but their church has lost sight of the big picture , and to them they are motivated by the amount of money that my parents contribute to them and the amount of people my parents can recruit to their church. Just like "amway" only evil i suppose.

Tink · 13 June 2009

thats sad Darkside
Thats not a religion, thats a cult..

I agree with Gav, comes down to the parents

darkside · 13 June 2009

Tink said:
thats sad Darkside
Thats not a religion, thats a cult..

I agree with Gav, comes down to the parents

Tink , they are a mainstream church , and they follow the bible to the letter , hence when they told us the church had given them this ultimatum, they produced scripts from the bible to reinforce their justification, and explain that to continue seeing us was a crime against their beliefs.Some scripts used also included ; Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
So at the end of the day they are doing the right thing by their beliefs , and i can't condemn them for that. But yes very sad for my kids and hard for them to get their heads around.

Julia · 13 June 2009

darkside said:
Kennas , it's not just the Catholic Church that promote a divide in families if you do not adhere to their beliefs.My parents have been banned by the church from seeing my family and of course their grandchildren because i choose not to be brainwashed by this organisation, a few years ago my parents gave us the ultimatum of joining their church or never having contact with them again

I'm really sorry to hear that, darkside. It's their loss, of course, but so unnecessary and silly.
It may be a mainstream church, but such a view seems, as suggested, very cult-like.

gav · 13 June 2009

kennas said:
Yes, it would be my own secular beliefs shaped by what's best in the year 2009 in Melbourne. Or, Lima at the moment.

Gav, my point is (making it poorly obviously) that religion (Catholicism in this case) lays down some moral laws that it's follows must abide by. Some churches probably try to enforce this dogma more than others. The Catholic church's stance on homosexuality can not be changed. I've forgotten the term, but it's a policy that they can NEVER back down on. If you want to be a good Catholic, you have to follow this teaching. No ifs or butts according to the Vatican. This is a law interpreted from the Books, which probably made some sence in the ancient world. There was a good social reason for it I am sure.

While Tink, and I assume many many other Catholics are 'ok' with homosexuality, I'm just saying that there can be instances where this moral law causes some hardship when it need not. This whole discussion is just in responce to Tink saying that the Catholic Church has made her and her family very happy. I'm just providing the other perspective where the Catholic Church has actually destroyed a mother-daughter relationship because of their stance on homosexuality. That's all.

I understand the point you are making Kennas, and of course I believe it is wrong to suggest to someone to end their relationship with their child due to sexual preference. But at the end of the day it is still the parent's that made the decision, not the Church.

Julia · 13 June 2009

kennas said:
Gav, my point is (making it poorly obviously)

On the contrary, Kennas, it's a very valid point and you've made it well.

that religion (Catholicism in this case) lays down some moral laws that it's follows must abide by. Some churches probably try to enforce this dogma more than others. The Catholic church's stance on homosexuality can not be changed. I've forgotten the term, but it's a policy that they can NEVER back down on. If you want to be a good Catholic, you have to follow this teaching. No ifs or butts according to the Vatican. This is a law interpreted from the Books, which probably made some sence in the ancient world. There was a good social reason for it I am sure.

While Tink, and I assume many many other Catholics are 'ok' with homosexuality, I'm just saying that there can be instances where this moral law causes some hardship when it need not. This whole discussion is just in responce to Tink saying that the Catholic Church has made her and her family very happy. I'm just providing the other perspective where the Catholic Church has actually destroyed a mother-daughter relationship because of their stance on homosexuality. That's all.

noirua · 13 June 2009

kennas said:
Yes, it would be my own secular beliefs shaped by what's best in the year 2009 in Melbourne. Or, Lima at the moment.

Gav, my point is (making it poorly obviously) that religion (Catholicism in this case) lays down some moral laws that it's follows must abide by. Some churches probably try to enforce this dogma more than others. The Catholic church's stance on homosexuality can not be changed. I've forgotten the term, but it's a policy that they can NEVER back down on. If you want to be a good Catholic, you have to follow this teaching. No ifs or butts according to the Vatican. This is a law interpreted from the Books, which probably made some sence in the ancient world. There was a good social reason for it I am sure.

While Tink, and I assume many many other Catholics are 'ok' with homosexuality, I'm just saying that there can be instances where this moral law causes some hardship when it need not. This whole discussion is just in responce to Tink saying that the Catholic Church has made her and her family very happy. I'm just providing the other perspective where the Catholic Church has actually destroyed a mother-daughter relationship because of their stance on homosexuality. That's all.

One day the Catholic Church will elect a with it Pope who will change things and bring the Church out of the 16th century. Maybe, even he will have to pretend he agrees with the mainstream to get elected.

peterh · 13 June 2009

noirua said:
One day the Catholic Church will elect a with it Pope who will change things and bring the Church out of the 16th century. Maybe, even he will have to pretend he agrees with the mainstream to get elected.

I would rather the church stands up clearly for what it believes in and what it was built upon, rather than be swayed by the mainstream opinion of the day.

bellenuit · 14 June 2009

peterh said:
I would rather the church stands up clearly for what it believes in and what it was built upon, rather than be swayed by the mainstream opinion of the day.

But isn't the history of the Christian churches that of belatedly accepting the mainstream opinion of the day?

What the Christian churches believed in in the 12 century is vastly different to what they believed in in the 16th century which is vastly different to what they believe in today. Adulterers aren't stoned to death any more nor are ladies with Tourette syndrome burned at the stake. As society became enlightened over the ages, so too did the churches, though often reluctantly and always belatedly.

I know the churches are not democracies and would not expect them to be swayed by the populist opinions of the day. But the churches are their people and people, even those who are fundamentally conservative, who open their minds to new ideas will change over time. The churches will follow suit. The old guard will die out and young blood will take its place. That's how it is and I suppose how it should be.

Tink · 14 June 2009

The core of the churches teachings will never change

but they have moved with changes in society...

bellenuit · 14 June 2009

Tink said:
The core of the churches teachings will never change

but they have moved with changes in society...

The core has always been changing. As science made certain positions and beliefs untenable, then the church slowly dropped those positions.

We may say that they were never core beliefs, so abandoning those beliefs is inconsequential. But at one stage they were core beliefs and the churchmen of the day would equally have said that they were part of the fundamental foundations of their faith.

The beauty in religion

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