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I have already debunked that notion on two counts. One it makes the devastatingly simplistic assumption that 'the world' 'must have been created' based on nothing but your own prejudiced thinking that assumes imagines and fantasizes that 'if things exist, they must be created.' So it's not a scientific question science doesn't deal in the sphere of 'en devouring to establish incoherent propositions.'If you would like to present a scientific view of how the universe was created without external influence and prove this was the only way it could have happened then I will believe there is no god.
Untill then...
So he must have been created by a creator god and that god, if it exists must also have been created by a creator god......
If there is a God, it's possible that He chooses to manifest only to some people, but not everyone. In that case, some people not only believe , but know truth as well.
Nobody really knows that, the writings and the bibles have been re written, revised and altered to suit changing regimes for 2000 years.Very misguided actually. Jesus taught morals which can be applied to everything. The role of the Church is to work things out.
Only if god is subject to time. If god is timeless then it has existed forever. If a god created the matter and energy of a universe it would have created time along with it.
Richard Dawkins is just one, of many classic examples I could give, of how easily a person can delude themselves into believing that their "crusade" is somehow justified.
Please note, that I do not blame atheism for Dawkins evident state of self delusion, for the very same reason that I do not blame theism for the Spanish Inquisition.
Atheism was simply, the style of music, Richard happened to be listening to, when he decided to allow, his, over inflated ego, to take him for a ride down fallacy lane.
On the contrary! I do not need to read every word written, nor hear every word spoken, to arrive at the conclusion that the author/orator, is engaged in a crusade, intitiated consequent to their own self delusion. A small sampling of his stated philosophy, has provided ample supportive evidence for my conclusionYou cannot push such comments or know unless you have read Dawkins works. He's written about 11 books on varying subjects, and I might add only the one directly about religion.
One I've recently read is "The Ancestor's Tale" about our four billion year evolution. Again a factual gathering together of the findings of anthopologist work over the ages. He is a leading academic and university researcher and if they made up stories they'd be straight out the door so quick the boot would be caught.
And those ifs don’t get around the fact that you still need to solve the problem of who created god.
Can you see how these two objections are logically incompatible? (i.e. it is impossible for both objections to be concurrently valid!)That’s a lot of “ifs”,
Do we have any evidence that anything can exist outside of space and time?
And those ifs don’t get around the fact that you still need to solve the problem of who created god.
As a youngster I read the bible prolifically and as I began my journey towards the priesthood got a good understanding of metaphysics, which in arguing the potential of a rock its a bit like our chatting here. Later at University I felt something did not add up. In fact as a ten year old I argued with our priest the components of the holy trinity, in the end he told me to just accept it and move on (SHUT UP) So yes I do have a fair grasp and lifelong jnterest.On the contrary! I do not need to read every word written, nor hear every word spoken, to arrive at the conclusion that the author/orator, is engaged in a crusade, intitiated consequent to their own self delusion. A small sampling of his stated philosophy, has provided ample supportive evidence for my conclusion
Did you, perchance, read every available, theistic scripture, prior to choosing atheism as your philosophy?
Have I ever exploited, your, less than exhaustive, research, to contest the integrity of your decision, to accept atheism as your religious philosophy?
By what possible reason, other than pure hypocrisy, can you accuse me, of your very own, self described failing?
I have, as yet, not received, any logically sound rebuttals, to that argument, from yourself, or anyone else, for that matter.
Creation is dependent on time. If time does not exist or something is not subject to it, then creation is irrelevant.
Can you give me an example of something that exists, but isn’t subject to time?
You seem to repeatedly mistake my meaning! You clearly have not read every theistic scripture, nor have I, for that matter! The Roman Catholic Church, like many other religions, does not hold the monopoly on theism!As a youngster I read the bible prolifically and as I began my journey towards the priesthood got a good understanding of metaphysics, which in arguing the potential of a rock its a bit like our chatting here. Later at University I felt something did not add up. In fact as a ten year old I argued with our priest the components of the holy trinity, in the end he told me to just accept it and move on (SHUT UP) So yes I do have a fair grasp and lifelong jnterest.
Please tell where is my failing and my hypocrisy. Is it because I want to know and will not accept the pie in the sky of BELIEF.
However if you can produce a god and I can shake his hand on parting the river for our path from ASF headquarters, then I'll know. Untill then your just dreaming ole pal.
My abridged version, of the kalam argument for the existence of god. You know! The one that logically demonstrates, the necessary existence, of a potent,eternal uncreated creator!Which arguement are you talking about?
Whilst I am most definitely opposed to anti-theism, I am most definitely not seeking to prove atheism wrong!Ok, lets move on from Richard.
There is no physical evidence that there is a living God. God is a belief formed in the (conditioned) mind.
So I invite you to prove me wrong with fact cynic.
Actually your trips in circles is reminiscent of Thomas Aquenas
I am not saying you are wrong. You are so rigid that you do not see the argument. And why do assert that I seek satisfaction in our argument. I only seek understanding so as to learn. It is clear that matter we see and feel before us is a fact and has been around probably according to the latest science always. No beginning and no end. I believe (but I don't know) this.Whilst I am most definitely opposed to anti-theism, I am most definitely not seeking to prove atheism wrong!
I do not claim to be able to conclusively, prove or disprove, the existence of divinity. However, I do claim that there exist, sound reasons for arriving at the conclusion, that there exists a great mystery, which must either be, or contain, at minimum, a potent creative force.
I do not see how any non-theist, can justify boldly insisting that theists are wrong, for the simple reasons that non-theists are currently unable to furnish a sound explanation for material existence, nor are they able to conclusively disprove the existence of all possible deities.
You have identified as atheist! That's wonderful! Truly! Because it means that you spent some time considering the question, and arrived at a decision about what you do and do not believe!
But does your satisfaction, and confidence, in your chosen beliefs and disbeliefs, entitle you to presume that those whom chose differently, must be wrong?
How have you come to know this?...
In God there is "belief" and,
How have you come to believe this?In science we "know"
Science is observation, people believed the earth was flat, observation (ie. science) proved it was round.How have you come to know this?
And...
How have you come to believe this?
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