Israel Folau - Breach of contract or right to free speech?

[Dark Knight 2.0]

And may I ask my fellow drunk fornicator atheists on this site, do you take offence enough to think Folau shoulda been sacked?

 

[SirRumpole]

And may I ask my fellow drunk fornicator atheists on this site, do you take offence enough to think Folau shoulda been sacked?

Nuh. To me it's a matter of what an employer can tell you to do or not to do.

Once you "clock off", the employer *should* have no control over you and your life is your own.

Otherwise you are a slave.

 

[rederob]

And may I ask my fellow drunk fornicator atheists on this site, do you take offence enough to think Folau shoulda been sacked?

The issue relates to his employment contract which includes a code of conduct.
Nothing prevents anyone from holding a religious point of view. Expressing that point of view publicly can be judged quite differently.
Example: Mr Fake Person's religious belief is that men should have many wives, and their ages are immaterial. Fake is a primary school teacher. On weekends Fake is found at street corners disseminating literature consistent with his beliefs.
What should the school do?

 

[tech/a]

Nuh. To me it's a matter of what an employer can tell you to do or not to do.

Once you "clock off", the employer *should* have no control over you and your life is your own.

Otherwise you are a slave.

Your not a slave you are paid well for what you do for your employer
You have a choice. If you were offered more you'd go elsewhere.

Your employer should also have a choice if you make a choice which
effects your employer. Just as I'm sure that if your employer made a choice
that effected you enough you'd leave.

Your employer doesn't have control over what YOU do
That's the point YOU HAVE CONTROL!

 

[Gringotts Bank]

What should the school do?

The headmaster should have a word to him. It's called a head fake.

 

[SirRumpole]

Your employer should also have a choice if you make a choice which
effects your employer. Just as I'm sure that if your employer made a choice
that effected you enough you'd leave.

Folau's beliefs do not affect his employer.

They are his own personal opinions. His employer has the right to disagree.

Contracts of employment should not infringe on people's civil rights, and freedom of expression is one of those rights.

 

[SirRumpole]

The issue relates to his employment contract which includes a code of conduct.
Nothing prevents anyone from holding a religious point of view. Expressing that point of view publicly can be judged quite differently.
Example: Mr Fake Person's religious belief is that men should have many wives, and their ages are immaterial. Fake is a primary school teacher. On weekends Fake is found at street corners disseminating literature consistent with his beliefs.
What should the school do?

What is Fake employed to teach ? Physics or Maths ? No conflict of interest there.

Religion ? Shouldn't be taught in schools anyway.

 

[Dark Knight 2.0]

Yes @rederob and @tech/a but having a punishment befitting the crime is the issue I believe.
Folau's conduct dosent really cause harm to the company's brand. Outside of this issue, Israel Folau actually improves the brands image imo. He comes across as a wholesome (perhaps naive) choirboy.

 

[tech/a]

Folau's beliefs do not affect his employer.

They are his own personal opinions. His employer has the right to disagree.

Contracts of employment should not infringe on people's civil rights, and freedom of expression is one of those rights.

To do nothing implies to many that the employer is in agreement or supportive.
His employer is disagreeing--There is disagreement with the disagreement.
So you have no line for freedom of expression.
Your line will be different to mine even if you don't have one.
What is your line?

 

[Dark Knight 2.0]

Folau's beliefs do not affect his employer.

They are his own personal opinions. His employer has the right to disagree.

Contracts of employment should not infringe on people's civil rights, and freedom of expression is one of those rights.

I think that's the cause of action they are pursuing - the employer can't impose those restrictions or termination due to expressing religious beliefs.

 

[wayneL]

Do we have a cite of which term of contract he has purportedly breached. That is key I think.

As a general principle though, not withstanding the above, I think its a dangerous precedent. What other proclamation might get you sacked?

A moderate view on CC?
The cruelty of Halal slaughter.
Veganism? Carnivorism?
Moderate political views?
Child discipline?
Criticisms of paedophilia (the next shoe to drop possibly? )?

What if one if the Islamic players made a proclamation most of us find offensive?
Destruction of Israel?
Female genital mutilation?
Behead infidels?

We know some do hold those beliefs, even if it isn't on Twitter.

 

[Smurf1976]

I'll simply observe that there's a difference between the context of freedom of expression and so on versus whether or not someone agrees with the content.

I disagree absolutely with this man's views, indeed I'm none too keen on the entire concept of religion, but there ought to be consistency.

If he's sacked for expressing a religious view then any player who expressed the opposite view should also be sacked.

Either it's acceptable for them to be commenting publicly about religion or it's not. What religion they follow shouldn't alter that - either they can promote it or they can't.

Same with any issue. If it's not acceptable for someone to promote the Greens then it shouldn't be acceptable for them to promote One Nation either. Etc.

I can follow the point about an employer not wanting their high profile employees to comment to the media but that should be a blanket rule for all. If it's "no religion" or "no politics" then it's no commenting about religion or politics. What their actual religious or political view happens to be shouldn't be a factor in that.

 

[rederob]

Do we have a cite of which term of contract he has purportedly breached. That is key I think.

As a general principle though, not withstanding the above, I think its a dangerous precedent. What other proclamation might get you sacked?

A moderate view on CC?
The cruelty of Halal slaughter.
Veganism? Carnivorism?
Moderate political views?
Child discipline?
Criticisms of paedophilia (the next shoe to drop possibly? )?

What if one if the Islamic players made a proclamation most of us find offensive?
Destruction of Israel?
Female genital mutilation?
Behead infidels?

We know some do hold those beliefs, even if it isn't on Twitter.

Yes, RA made that clear, so read what they said.
RA requires players to treat everyone equally and with dignity, regardless of their sexual orientation; not to use social media to breach expected standards of behaviour; and not to make public comments or otherwise act contrary to the best interests of the game.
On that standard you will note that religion is not mentioned.
Falau will need to show that religion was in fact the basis of his termination.
If I were prosecuting the case I would never use the word "religion" at all, and only ever refer to his personal beliefs as his personal motivating factor in tweeting. And I would not wander from the code of conduct as being the foundation of player respect for each other and the betterment of the game.
As to your other points, there are laws that proscribe certain types of statements and actions, and they would be applied accordingly.

 

[jbocker]

Take care Israel you might be creating some Idolaters (if you haven't already).
Might have been better to have kept your message offline and spuik it after your contract had ended.

 

[Dark Knight 2.0]

Take care Israel you might be creating some Idolaters (if you haven't already).
Might have been better to have kept your message offline and spuik it after your contract had ended.

Have you seen Israel Folau? You see him alongside all the other Wobblies and he has the best genetics - could play anyway except Prop or Hooker with enough training. He should be your idol too

(assuming he's not totally fast twitch like Lote Tuquiri was).

 

[Dark Knight 2.0]

my comments are in blue.

Yes, RA made that clear, so read what they said.
RA requires players to treat everyone equally and with dignity, regardless of their sexual orientation; not to use social media to breach expected standards of behaviour; and not to make public comments or otherwise act contrary to the best interests of the game.
You know this for a fact? I think David Pocock going back to Sth Africa and shooting defenceless Animals is a lot worse.

You like that Wayne. Sorry Rob

 

[wayneL]

Yes, RA made that clear, so read what they said.
RA requires players to treat everyone equally and with dignity, regardless of their sexual orientation; not to use social media to breach expected standards of behaviour; and not to make public comments or otherwise act contrary to the best interests of the game.
On that standard you will note that religion is not mentioned.
Falau will need to show that religion was in fact the basis of his termination.
If I were prosecuting the case I would never use the word "religion" at all, and only ever refer to his personal beliefs as his personal motivating factor in tweeting. And I would not wander from the code of conduct as being the foundation of player respect for each other and the betterment of the game.
As to your other points, there are laws that proscribe certain types of statements and actions, and they would be applied accordingly.

I wouldn't mind seeing the actual clause(s).

In Izzy's mind, he is trying to save them, as silly as that may be to many. Clearly the intent was not to disrespect.

Nor do I believe there was any substantive effect on RA (DKs example highlights this), in fact, their own actions appear to have been more detrimental to themselves.

IMO, this is nothing more than a manifestation of the current radical gender politics and certain Acters flwxing their new found political muscle.

 

[rederob]

You know this for a fact? I think David Pocock going back to Sth Africa and shooting defenceless Animals is a lot worse.
You like that Wayne. Sorry Rob

I did summarise in context, so here are the breached elements in detail:

• to promote the reputation of the game and to take all reasonable steps to prevent the game from being brought into disrepute;
• not to do anything which is likely to intimidate, offend, insult or humiliate another participant on the ground of the religion, sexual orientation, disability, race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the person;
• not to conduct themselves in any manner, or engage in any activity, whether on or off the field, that would impair public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of matches and competitions or in the integrity and good character of participants; and
  
• not to do anything which adversely affects or reflects on or discredits the game, the ARU, any Member Union or Affiliated Union of the ARU, or any squad, team, competition, tournament, sponsor, official supplier or licensee, including, but not limited to, any illegal act or any act of dishonesty or fraud.

 

[rederob]

IMO, this is nothing more than a manifestation of the current radical gender politics and certain Acters flwxing their new found political muscle.

What a load of bollocks!

 

[wayneL]

I did summarise in context, so here are the breached elements in detail:

• to promote the reputation of the game and to take all reasonable steps to prevent the game from being brought into disrepute;
• not to do anything which is likely to intimidate, offend, insult or humiliate another participant on the ground of the religion, sexual orientation, disability, race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the person;
• not to conduct themselves in any manner, or engage in any activity, whether on or off the field, that would impair public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of matches and competitions or in the integrity and good character of participants; and
  
• not to do anything which adversely affects or reflects on or discredits the game, the ARU, any Member Union or Affiliated Union of the ARU, or any squad, team, competition, tournament, sponsor, official supplier or licensee, including, but not limited to, any illegal act or any act of dishonesty or fraud.

Thank you.