Immunisation, right or wrong?

sydboy007 · 17 February 2015

cynic said:
This is getting repetitious.

Have I not already voiced my concerns regarding the failure of some to distinguish between correlation and causation?

Have I not also drawn attention to the fact that there were numerous beneficial changes throughout the past century that, ideally, need to be considered when trying to determine causation?

I hope by now you can understand why I consider it unwise to become too attached to opinions regarding the likely causation behind the eradication of the diseases you mention.

Yet you wont answer a simple question.

If small pox wasn't eradicated due to mass immunisation, then what other causation do you offer as an alternative. I honestly can't think of anything else, considering that small pox had been around for roughly 16000 years prior.

Same with polio. I've not met anyone born in Australia within the last 40 years who's had polio. If it isn't vaccination that's allowed this to occur, then what has? The only person of similar age I know who had polio was from South America and had not been vaccinated for polio when living there.

You seem to be arguing that improved sanitation, possibly improved access to food and general health care can explain the reduction in various diseases that are vaccine preventable.

cynic · 17 February 2015

orr said:
Depending of the origin supporting published statements and the capacities of the authors and my variance to them, I'd conclude either I'm mad or they are....

You're the one here who posts supporting links to, 'crack pots' ... or? you would describe them as ???

The published statement I've linked to ?.... I'll await your description.

By the way, both my father and his brother contracted polio as children, from Pemperton's polio pool in Ramsgate NSW as it was euphormisticly referred to back then. I don't know what you've suffered. But if your exercises in semantics here, were to lead to one unnecessary infection, I'd find a use for an iron lung, and where I'd place it, wouldn't be aiding your resporation.

You were asked for your opinion previously ....
now you've two more Q's .... and here's another, are they to hard???

My opinion and rationale have been repeatedly stated throughout this thread. If you truly believe your questions unanswered, then I recommend that you read through my previous posts.

My concerns regarding the importance of discernment and critical thinking, when assessing the merits of any claims, have also been expressed.

A tragic reality that seems recurrent throughout human history, is the habitual and automatic vilification of those daring enough to question popular beliefs!

cynic · 18 February 2015

sydboy007 said:
Yet you wont answer a simple question.

If small pox wasn't eradicated due to mass immunisation, then what other causation do you offer as an alternative. I honestly can't think of anything else, considering that small pox had been around for roughly 16000 years prior.

Same with polio. I've not met anyone born in Australia within the last 40 years who's had polio. If it isn't vaccination that's allowed this to occur, then what has? The only person of similar age I know who had polio was from South America and had not been vaccinated for polio when living there.

You seem to be arguing that improved sanitation, possibly improved access to food and general health care can explain the reduction in various diseases that are vaccine preventable.

Not quite! But you're getting warmer!

I'm saying that there were other factors that may have contributed to the eradication of those diseases and ideally should also be considered when attempting to conclude causation.

(Please note that there is a chasm of difference between the meaning of the words "may" and "can".)

sydboy007 · 18 February 2015

cynic said:
Not quite! But you're getting warmer!

I'm saying that there were other factors that may have contributed to the eradication of those diseases and ideally should also be considered when attempting to conclude causation.

(Please note that there is a chasm of difference between the meaning of the words "may" and "can".)

Yet you don't actually say what those other factors that may have contributed to the eradication of those diseases and ideally should also be considered when attempting to conclude causation.

I'm not a mind reader, so how about you put a couple of bullet points down and make it easy for me to understand your argument.

Lets be specific and focus on small pox, since it's the first virus I'm aware of that we have reasonable proof existed and now no longer exists in the environment we live in.

cynic · 18 February 2015

sydboy007 said:
...
Lets be specific and focus on small pox, since it's the first virus I'm aware of that we have reasonable proof existed and now no longer exists in the environment we live in.

Lets not!

If you wish to talk about smallpox you are perfectly free to do so!

I've already expressed my concerns regarding pharmacology enamoured researchers automatically favouring one correlation in isolation to all others, and see no benefit in reiterating my observations to those disinterested in openly investigating the question of causation.

The current campaign for herd immunity happens to be heavily focused on vaccination for a number of far less serious diseases which were once considered too trivial to even warrant vaccination!

Every child I knew whilst growing up was allowed to catch chickenpox, mumps and measles - and did so!

It really didn't present much of a problem.

The child simply stayed at home for the few days that it took to recover.

Girls were vaccinated against rubella in those days.
(Apparently there were concerns over the impact of rubella on the human foetus during pregnancy).

Julia · 18 February 2015

cynic said:
Every child I knew whilst growing up was allowed to catch chickenpox, mumps and measles - and did so!

It really didn't present much of a problem.

I cannot see the sense in anyone, child or adult, being subjected to any of the above if vaccination can avoid it.
And they are not necessarily as mild as you seem to be suggesting.
Then if someone who has avoided it in childhood catches measles as an adult they can be very sick indeed.
I can remember my mother being very ill, having pneumonia as a complication, despite the fact that she was at the time a healthy 35 year old.

I had whooping cough as an adult and coughed so intensely and relentlessly that I vomited and lost consciousness.

So I cannot see any case for altering the status quo which strongly encourages vaccination.

cynic · 18 February 2015

Julia said:
I cannot see the sense in anyone, child or adult, being subjected to any of the above if vaccination can avoid it.

You are certainly quite entitled to hold your own point of view , whatsoever it may be, and I am equally entitled to mine!

However, when it comes to supporting a campaign to oppress the rights of others...

And they are not necessarily as mild as you seem to be suggesting.

For the children I knew it certainly was mild in comparison to the outlandish claims in the media. Concerns did arise if a child didn't catch these diseases prior to adolescence. Fortunately it was sufficiently prevalent that such occurrences were virtually unheard of.

Then if someone who has avoided it in childhood catches measles as an adult they can be very sick indeed.
I can remember my mother being very ill, having pneumonia as a complication, despite the fact that she was at the time a healthy 35 year old.

I had whooping cough as an adult and coughed so intensely and relentlessly that I vomited and lost consciousness.

So I cannot see any case for altering the status quo which strongly encourages vaccination.

Actually, you may not have noticed this, but it seems that you have just inadvertently highlighted a very strong argument against the case for vaccination!

Knobby22 · 18 February 2015

cynic said:
Girls were vaccinated against rubella in those days.
(Apparently there were concerns over the impact of rubella on the human foetus during pregnancy).

Girls are still vaccinated for rubella.
I have a cousin who's Mum got rubella during the early stages of pregnancy because she didn't vaccinate and I can tell you the damage to the child is horrific. He is nearly totally blind, deaf, brain damages etc. Very nasty and so preventable.

People should watch documentaries about polio, see the iron lungs and the pure agony and death. If people don't want to vaccinate, just like they want to drink milk that hasn't been pasteurised, then good on them but don't come running for me to help when it all goes wrong.

Governments try to protect people but if they want to deliberately expose themselves to danger then they should act with some responsibility and don't visit pre school centres or maternity wards!!

cynic · 18 February 2015

Knobby22 said:
Girls are still vaccinated for rubella.
I have a cousin who's Mum got rubella during the early stages of pregnancy because she didn't vaccinate and I can tell you the damage to the child is horrific. He is nearly totally blind, deaf, brain damages etc. Very nasty and so preventable.

Yes- that matches my understanding of the case for vaccination against rubella (which was the reason for my inclusion of that comment).

Knobby22 said:
People should watch documentaries about polio, see the iron lungs and the pure agony and death. If people don't want to vaccinate, just like they want to drink milk that hasn't been pasteurised, then good on them but don't come running for me to help when it all goes wrong.

Governments try to protect people but if they want to deliberately expose themselves to danger then they should act with some responsibility and don't visit pre school centres or maternity wards!!

People could also take the time to acquaint themselves with the families of children unfortunate enough to have a vaccination go horribly wrong!!

sydboy007 · 18 February 2015

cynic said:
Lets not!

If you wish to talk about smallpox you are perfectly free to do so!

I've already expressed my concerns regarding pharmacology enamoured researchers automatically favouring one correlation in isolation to all others, and see no benefit in reiterating my observations to those disinterested in openly investigating the question of causation.

The current campaign for herd immunity happens to be heavily focused on vaccination for a number of far less serious diseases which were once considered too trivial to even warrant vaccination!

Every child I knew whilst growing up was allowed to catch chickenpox, mumps and measles - and did so!

It really didn't present much of a problem.

The child simply stayed at home for the few days that it took to recover.

Girls were vaccinated against rubella in those days.
(Apparently there were concerns over the impact of rubella on the human foetus during pregnancy).

So basically you seem unwilling / unable to proffer any understandable alternatives to vaccination as the cause of reduction in the amount of vaccine preventable disease related deaths and complications.

Even if it turned out 50% of the reduction was due to vaccines, that's still a massive benefit to humanity.

sydboy007 · 18 February 2015

cynic said:
Yes- that matches my understanding of the case for vaccination against rubella (which was the reason for my inclusion of that comment).

People could also take the time to acquaint themselves with the families of children unfortunate enough to have a vaccination go horribly wrong!!

Which cohort is larger? Those that benefited from vaccination, or those harmed?

Even measels, one of your so called mild diseases (from the WHO website)

Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.

Seems a pretty good risk reward trade off.

cynic · 18 February 2015

sydboy007 said:
So basically you seem unwilling / unable to proffer any understandable alternatives to vaccination as the cause of reduction in the amount of vaccine preventable disease related deaths and complications.

My posts have already alerted you to my concerns and I find your repetitious insistence to the contrary somewhat tiresome.

Just because someone doesn't like or agree with the content of my responses, doesn't entitle them to claim that none were proffered!!!

sydboy007 said:
Even if it turned out 50% of the reduction was due to vaccines, that's still a massive benefit to humanity.

Perhaps!

However, what if it turned out that improved sanitation, food handling practices, nutritional awareness etc. accounted for the "lion's share" and it turned out that eradication only occurred in spite of vaccination and not because of it?!!

cynic · 18 February 2015

sydboy007 said:
Which cohort is larger? Those that benefited from vaccination, or those harmed?

Even measels, one of your so called mild diseases (from the WHO website)

Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.

In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally

Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.

In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.

During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.

Seems a pretty good risk reward trade off.

Really!

Then tell me, how many measles deaths were there annually, prior to the world's introduction to the use of measles vaccine?

cynic · 18 February 2015

burglar · 18 February 2015

cynic said:
View attachment 61624

Are we now immortal or have I missed the point too?

SirRumpole · 18 February 2015

burglar said:
Are we now immortal or have I missed the point too?

I think he's making the point that measles deaths rapidly decreased before the advent of vaccinations.

cynic · 18 February 2015

SirRumpole said:
I think he's making the point that measles deaths rapidly decreased before the advent of vaccinations.

+1

It may also be interesting to note the period during which the decline occurs and how it seems to coincide with the decline in prevalence of other diseases!

orr · 19 February 2015

cynic said:
Lets not!

Every child I knew whilst growing up was allowed to catch chickenpox, mumps and measles - and did so!

Lets

And which one/s of those have suffered mental retardation due to the effects encephalitic manifestation of the (now conceivably completely avoidable) measles infection?

Or is that obvious ...

Back of the envelope calculations are about 350 cases of sevre Mental retardation due to measles per million

Spose it has to be somebody, hey Cynic.

cynic · 19 February 2015

cynic said:
...
The current campaign for herd immunity happens to be heavily focused on vaccination for a number of far less serious diseases which were once considered too trivial to even warrant vaccination!

Every child I knew whilst growing up was allowed to catch chickenpox, mumps and measles - and did so!

It really didn't present much of a problem.

The child simply stayed at home for the few days that it took to recover.

Girls were vaccinated against rubella in those days.
(Apparently there were concerns over the impact of rubella on the human foetus during pregnancy).

orr said:
Lets

And which one/s of those have suffered mental retardation due to the effects encephalitic manifestation of the (now conceivably completely avoidable) measles infection?

Or is that obvious ...

Back of the envelope calculations are about 350 cases of sevre Mental retardation due to measles per million

Spose it has to be somebody, hey Cynic.

Orr, please recognize that my observations regarding the relative triviality of certain diseases most certainly did not include rubella (commonly referred to as "German measles") which was purposely mentioned separately!

cynic said:
...
The current campaign for herd immunity happens to be heavily focused on vaccination for a number of far less serious diseases which were once considered too trivial to even warrant vaccination!

Every child I knew whilst growing up was allowed to catch chickenpox, mumps and measles - and did so!

It really didn't present much of a problem.

The child simply stayed at home for the few days that it took to recover.

Girls were vaccinated against rubella in those days.
(Apparently there were concerns over the impact of rubella on the human foetus during pregnancy).

sydboy007 · 19 February 2015

cynic said:
My posts have already alerted you to my concerns and I find your repetitious insistence to the contrary somewhat tiresome.

Just because someone doesn't like or agree with the content of my responses, doesn't entitle them to claim that none were proffered!!!

Perhaps!

However, what if it turned out that improved sanitation, food handling practices, nutritional awareness etc. accounted for the "lion's share" and it turned out that eradication only occurred in spite of vaccination and not because of it?!!

Then how does one explain the regular outbreaks of various vaccine preventable diseases?

Are there sudden changes in sanitation, or perhaps diets suddenly change? I suppose the nanas hep a food scare shows how poor food handling can spread disease quite readily, but then unless you're going to rely solely on your own produce seems a hep a/b vacination is a reasonable preventative route to take, especially if you plan to travel overseas, or interact with people from overseas.

That the issue with today's globalised world. Just because the country you live in has been able to lower the incidence of a particular disease through good sanitation / access to nutrition / high hygiene doesn't offer that much protection these days. If you live in a global city like Sydney or Melbourne where millions of people from countries with much higher rates of measles and hepatitis visit, then it's hard to avoid coming into contact with infected people. Possibly living in outback Australia might give you some protection - hopefully you got ya tetanus vaccination though.

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