Immunisation, right or wrong?

[cynic]

Then how does one explain the regular outbreaks of various vaccine preventable diseases?
...

What makes you so certain that these diseases were vaccine preventable?

Where's the evidence that conclusively proves efficacy of vaccine?

Where's the evidence that conclusively disproves the benefits of improved nutrition, sanitation etcetera?

Until these questions are adequately answered, questions regarding causation must surely remain open!

 

[cynic]

 

[Value Collector]

View attachment 61642

And how many deaths prevented due to eradication?

 

[cynic]

And how many deaths prevented due to eradication?

Given that questions regarding eradication causation remain open, I fail to understand how anybody could so much as claim to be able to proffer a definitive answer to your question.

 

[Value Collector]

Given that questions regarding eradication causation remain open, I fail to understand how anybody could so much as claim to be able to proffer a definitive answer to your question.

You crack me up cynic, you have got to be a Poe.

 

[sydboy007]

View attachment 61642

So your argument is that 16000 years of small pox within humanity and somehow being able to wash our hands and eat enough calories a day is the major contributor to the virus going extinct in the wild?

 

[Value Collector]

So your argument is that 16000 years of small pox within humanity and somehow being able to wash our hands and eat enough calories a day is the major contributor to the virus going extinct in the wild?

I wonder what fantasy story he can construct to explain why Polio has been eradicated everywhere except the one place where the vaccine can not be distributed due to Islamic fanatics killing aid workers.

 

[cynic]

So your argument is that 16000 years of small pox within humanity and somehow being able to wash our hands and eat enough calories a day is the major contributor to the virus going extinct in the wild?

Sydboy007, please, please please desist from such misrepresentation regarding my position on this question!

....
I'm saying that there were other factors that may have contributed to the eradication of those diseases and ideally should also be considered when attempting to conclude causation.

(Please note that there is a chasm of difference between the meaning of the words "may" and "can".)

...
Much has changed and despite my deep concerns regarding vaccination, I still like to believe that some of it may have been beneficial for some (or perhaps even many) members of the populace.

However, numerous societal advancements during those years do render the question of causation difficult to conclusively settle from statistical correlations.

This is getting repetitious.

Have I not already voiced my concerns regarding the failure of some to distinguish between correlation and causation?

Have I not also drawn attention to the fact that there were numerous beneficial changes throughout the past century that, ideally, need to be considered when trying to determine causation?

I hope by now you can understand why I consider it unwise to become too attached to opinions regarding the likely causation behind the eradication of the diseases you mention.

 

[cynic]

I wonder what fantasy story he can construct to explain why Polio has been eradicated everywhere except the one place where the vaccine can not be distributed due to Islamic fanatics killing aid workers.

Who's fantasizing here?

Concerns about viral reversion to neurovirulence have been bolstered recently by three separate reports. An outbreak of 21 cases of polio in the Dominican Republic and Haiti which began in October 2000,16 has been shown to be associated with a vaccine-derived poliovirus type 1, which had recovered the capacity to cause paralytic disease. A retrospective study of polioviruses circulating in Egypt between 1982 and 1993 demonstrated that a vaccine derived poliovirus type 2 was associated with 32 cases of polio.17 A third outbreak of paralytic disease associated with vaccine derived poliovirus occurred in October 2001 in the Philippines, where 3 children were infected with a poliovirus type 1 variant.18 The occurrence of variant neurovirulent polioviruses in populations with low vaccination rates in three different geographic areas raise concerns that these could be more widely spread.

(Note: I've taken the liberty of bolding portions of some statements which have serious implications!)

Given that the aforequoted paragraph appears in the following publication:
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-pubs-cdi-2002-cdi2602-cdi2602a.htm

..who's fantasizing now?

 

[Value Collector]

Who's fantasizing here?



(Note: I've taken the liberty of bolding some statements which have serious implications!)

Given that the aforequoted paragraph appears in the following publication:
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-pubs-cdi-2002-cdi2602-cdi2602a.htm

..who's fantasizing now?

So how many cases of polio have been caused by vaccination? and how many cases have been prevented now and into the future considering polio is virtually eradicated?

and before you go on a poe's law tangent about the cornering of polio to not being due to the vaccinations, please explain why it is you think polio now only exists in the one part of the world where we can't safely give out vaccinations.

 

[cynic]

So how many cases of polio have been caused by vaccination? and how many cases have been prevented now and into the future considering polio is virtually eradicated?
...

Given that not all incidences of this disease are correctly diagnosed and reported, how could one possibly know?

...
and before you go on a poe's law tangent about the cornering of polio to not being due to the vaccinations, please explain why it is you think polio now only exists in the one part of the world where we can't safely give out vaccinations.

Please refer to my recent response (post # 188) to Sydboy007.

 

[bellenuit]

Anti-vaxx mom abandons movement — after all seven of her kids get whooping cough

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/...all-seven-her-of-her-kids-get-whooping-cough/

 

[cynic]

By now the participants of this thread will already be well aware that vaccines aren't 100% effective.

Knowing this, one might reasonably ask just how effective are they?

We've seen ample media coverage of medical authorities assuring >90% efficacy, but do these assurances actually translate into reality?

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2014/jun/12/immunized-people-getting-whooping-cough/

 

[Tisme]

By now the participants of this thread will already be well aware that vaccines aren't 100% effective.

Knowing this, one might reasonably ask just how effective are they?

Historically = very.

I bet the native americans would have liked a shot before the Europeans came knocking.....and the Martians at the zenith of The War of The Worlds.

Seriously there are still remnants of polio victims about, as a boy I watched a mother down the street slowly succumb to TB, people not so long ago died frequently of the flu, ...these are sample diseases that don't make a race stronger by weeding out the weak, they just kill indiscriminately.

 

[cynic]

Historically = very.

I bet the native americans would have liked a shot before the Europeans came knocking.....and the Martians at the zenith of The War of The Worlds.

Seriously there are still remnants of polio victims about, as a boy I watched a mother down the street slowly succumb to TB, people not so long ago died frequently of the flu, ...these are sample diseases that don't make a race stronger by weeding out the weak, they just kill indiscriminately.

Interestingly enough, some decades and several diseases ago, I might have actually agreed with your perspective on this!

Since you've volunteered an answer to one of my rhetorical questions, perhaps you'd like to answer the other regarding translation of promised efficacy into reality!

Should you choose to do so, it would also be of interest to read your thoughts on how this perceived "efficacy" is reconciled with reported events.

P.S. As for Europeans and H.G. Wells' unfortunate Martians, I think many, irrespective of personal bias, with actual experience of the woeful performance of the influenza vaccines would likely agree that the woeful performance of our contemporary influenza vaccines would prove tantamount to a death sentence to such historical and fictional entities.

 

[Tisme]

Interestingly enough, some decades and several diseases ago, I might have actually agreed with your perspective on this!

.

What made you second guess what I see as common sense predicated on empirical success:- millions saved, the few succumbed.

I'm fairly sure I don't need to know latin or the medical lingo to understand the success of immunisation, so if you can put your argument in plain straightforward numbers, I'm happy to consider your argument as plausible. But it has to be fair and not an obfuscate and obdurate numbers puzzle as used, for instance by Newscorp/Jones/Bolt to make Noco happy.

 

[cynic]

What made you second guess what I see as common sense predicated on empirical success:- millions saved, the few succumbed.
...

That many?!

Really?!

For each person proven to have perished from vaccination, can you confidently identify so much as one person from amongst those millions purportedly saved?

If so, which of the purportedly vaccine preventable disease/s was this person "saved" from and where is the proof that this person wouldn't have survived via their normal immune response?

The tragic reality is that such grandiose claims regarding lives saved are simply estimates based upon society's perception of vaccine efficacy.

In the real world, events have occurred which call such optimistic perceptions into serious doubt.

 

[Craton]

By now the participants of this thread will already be well aware that vaccines aren't 100% effective.

Back in the mid 80's (and I dare say pertinent information was not so readily available back then) as a new parent, I was well aware of this and well aware of the associated risks (including death) of vaccinating my children. At the time even though my dearly departed wife and I had both had been immunised and had the polio syrup via the school system, we still discussed at length the pros and cons of immunising our kids. So is it right or wrong was a huge question mark over us at the time.

To me it was a real case of damned it you do and damned if you don't Catch 22 scenario. We decided to go pro vaccination for many reasons foremost of which, in our perception, was that the disease was far worse than the cure.

We also took it upon ourselves that if a child died because of the vaccination, so be it. We would be wholly responsible for the decision we had taken, we would not blame each other or the "authorities" because it was our choice to give our children what we thought would help in giving them the best start in life. Vaccination was simply a part and parcel of that start.

We also took the view that if the child did die, then that child had a weakness that no vaccination could/would protect the child against regardless. Also, an un-immunised child would be at risk.

Had we not immunised and a child died because of that non-immunisation decision, I don't think we, certainly I could've, coped with that. It would have torn us apart in more ways than one.

Is it right or wrong?
I think it's up to the parents but it seems our current govt. is going to make that judgement call for the parents. Probably better that way too due to the large, obvious rift and division amongst the anti and pro-vaxx groups.

Do I regret the pro decision?
Not for a minute as my kids have grown up to either become parents or are on the cusp. Do I badger them on getting my grandkids immunised?
Of course not. It's a decision my kids have or will have to grapple with for themselves although I will say, they are all pro-vaxx.

I get that you are cynical cynic and good on you for doing/being so. Good on you too for showing an opposing view to the norm. I for one, appreciate it.

 

[cynic]

Craton,

Thankyou so much for your well considered post.

I found the circumspection displayed within most refreshing, and I'm glad that your choices have worked out well for yourself and family.

It's comforting to encounter one that shares an appreciation for the freedom to make informed choices (based upon best available resources) and accepting responsibility for the outcomes.
(I like to believe that's the reason each human is born fully equipped with its own personal brain - so that they needn't be solely dependent upon a collective decision making authority.)

Whilst controversy can often polarize a population into extreme viewpoints, making it difficult for members to equip themselves with impartial information when deciding issues, I don't wish to see freedom of choice regarding medication of oneself and one's own children legislated out of existence.

Given the above, if there was a push by government to completely outlaw vaccination, whilst I mightn't be nearly so outspoken on the issue, I certainly wouldn't be supporting that campaign either.

 

[DB008]

Ottawa mother of 7 abandons anti-vaxxer views as kids hit with whooping cough​

It was “the kind of cough that stops a parent’s heart,” says Tara Hills, who has seven children and has heard them cough many times before.

Just another cold, she thought at first. But her family’s journey into whooping cough treatment has forced them to re-examine what they believed about vaccination, knowledge and responsibility in a community.

Now the Hills family has gone public with their story, saying it’s important to help others understand the risks of not having vaccinations.

Their children, who range in age from 10 months to 10 years, were sick as April began. Most of the symptoms were just cold symptoms, Hills says. Runny noses, no fever.

“But it’s when they cough. This is a cough you’ve never heard before.”That’s why they arrived at CHEO at 4 a.m. on April 2. It took four days for the lab to confirm whooping cough, and antibiotic treatment began this Tuesday. The parents aren’t sick, but the kids are all confined to their home for five days, at which point Ottawa Public Health says they won’t be contagious.

Tara Hills was stunned. “I thought: Am I actually looking at whooping cough in the face? Could it be possible?”

The disease was one of those historical oddities she never even thought about dealing with, like smallpox or diphtheria.

But she and her husband, Gavin, had chosen not to have their children fully vaccinated ”” not through strong opposition, but more from uneasiness about the medical system.

Tara Hills wrote in a blog post about how they gave their first three children some vaccinations then stopped: “We stopped because we were scared and didn’t know who to trust. Was the medical community just paid=off puppets of a Big Pharma-Government-Media conspiracy? Were these vaccines even necessary in this day and age? Were we unwittingly doing greater harm than help to our beloved children? So much smoke must mean a fire so we defaulted to the ‘do nothing and hope nothing bad happens’ position.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-mother-of-7-abandons-anti-vaxxer-views-as-kids-hit-with-whooping-cough​