Immunisation, right or wrong?

[bellenuit]

I'm not a great fan of Tim Minchin, but I think this short animated film is superb.....

The Best Critique of Alternative Medicine Ever

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...nse_of_reason.html?fb_ref=sm_fb_share_toolbar

 

[Julia]

That's just terrific. I'm a great Tim Minchin fan - he's a hell of a piano player and his lyrics have all the relevance and punchiness he shows in this video.

If you wouldn't ordinarily take a look at this, give it a go. So, so good.
(And haven't we all been at one of those dinner parties!)

 

[bellenuit]

Interesting. Growing up unvaccinated.

I am the 70s child of a health nut. I wasn’t vaccinated.

http://www.mamamia.com.au/social/vaccination-growing-up-unvaccinated/

 

[Chris45]

Interesting. Growing up unvaccinated.
I am the 70s child of a health nut. I wasn’t vaccinated.
http://www.mamamia.com.au/social/vaccination-growing-up-unvaccinated/

Excellent article!

A low GST diet (eat mainly foods that don't attract the GST), avoidance of high sugar and high salt junk food, avoidance of toxic "recreational" drugs, sensible regular exercise and hygiene, PLUS a sensible approach to medicines and vaccines ... it's not rocket science.

I have a friend who swears by the advice on www.mercola.com and believes that vaccines should be avoided and that maintaining a high Vitamin D level is the secret to avoiding all illnesses. He spends a fortune on nutritional supplements and organic food, and spends a lot of time in the midday sun building up his Vit D. He recently caught a cold from touching something, he thinks. Hmmm!

 

[sydboy007]

A friend in malaysia has just found out he's got chicken pox. Was quite surprised he never had it as a child. Not sure how good vaccination programs were in Malaysia 20 odd years ago.

Luckily it wasn't mumps.

I'll take my chances with vaccines. It's the only way we eradicated small pox. Diet, supplements and better sanitation don't explain how that marvel happened.

 

[sydboy007]

Interesting. Growing up unvaccinated.

I am the 70s child of a health nut. I wasn’t vaccinated.

http://www.mamamia.com.au/social/vaccination-growing-up-unvaccinated/

Great article. For a minute I thought it was going to another anti vaccination rant, but she goes on to show just how many people are affected by preventable diseases, sometimes with life long repercussions.

 

[sydboy007]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/measles-outbreak-linked-to-sydney-dance-festival-20140103-30a1e.html

A person who isn't immunised against measles can get sick by coming within three metres of an infected person.

"Complications can range from an ear infection to pneumonia or swelling of the brain.”

 

[bellenuit]

Great article. For a minute I thought it was going to another anti vaccination rant, but she goes on to show just how many people are affected by preventable diseases, sometimes with life long repercussions.

I think this is a key point of the article: Those of you who have avoided childhood illnesses without vaccines are lucky. You couldn’t do it without us pro-vaxxers. They may think their anti-vaccine attitude works, but it is only because the other 95% actually do vaccinate.

And the important advice:
If you think your child’s immune system is strong enough to fight off vaccine-preventable diseases, then it’s strong enough to fight off the tiny amounts of dead or weakened pathogens present in any of the vaccines.

But not everyone around you is that strong, not everyone has a choice, not everyone can fight those illnesses, and not everyone can be vaccinated. If you have a healthy child, then your healthy child can cope with vaccines and can care about those unhealthy children who can’t.

 

[Judd]

A friend in malaysia has just found out he's got chicken pox. Was quite surprised he never had it as a child. Not sure how good vaccination programs were in Malaysia 20 odd years ago.

Luckily it wasn't mumps.

I'll take my chances with vaccines. It's the only way we eradicated small pox. Diet, supplements and better sanitation don't explain how that marvel happened.

You have just reminded me of events surrounding the birth of my son. Wife in the ward with about five other mothers and their new-borns. One mother had her family visit and one of her children had chicken-pox, which she knew. Very, very stupid and inconsiderate lady.

Well, Matron came. And I mean MATRON, none of this Director of Nursing stuff, in all of her awesome and glorious power. Get that child out of MY hospital!!! Now!

I really do find it difficult to understand how people are swayed by the false science spread by anti-vacination groups. Yes, a child can have a severe adverse reaction but a number of studies have shown the unfortunate children had a genetic pre-disposition and would have contracted the condition sooner or later. The vaccination was the trigger but not the actual cause. As for MMR/Autism, apart from David Wakefield being exposed as undertaking fraudulent research, the diagnosis of Autism coincidentally occurred around the time of the vaccination. Coincidence is not correlation.

 

[cynic]

You have just reminded me of events surrounding the birth of my son. Wife in the ward with about five other mothers and their new-borns. One mother had her family visit and one of her children had chicken-pox, which she knew. Very, very stupid and inconsiderate lady.

Well, Matron came. And I mean MATRON, none of this Director of Nursing stuff, in all of her awesome and glorious power. Get that child out of MY hospital!!! Now!

Thanks heavens for the dedication of that Matron!

I really do find it difficult to understand how people are swayed by the false science spread by anti-vacination groups.

Did my earlier posts fail to make this clear?

Yes, a child can have a severe adverse reaction but a number of studies have shown the unfortunate children had a genetic pre-disposition and would have contracted the condition sooner or later. The vaccination was the trigger but not the actual cause.

Even if these studies were accurate and unbiased (which I sincerely doubt), surely you would agree that later would be preferable to sooner! Your dismissive attitude towards the rights of all humans to be supported in striving to have the happiest and healthiest life possible is something that I find completely abhorrent!

As for MMR/Autism, apart from David Wakefield being exposed as undertaking fraudulent research, the diagnosis of Autism coincidentally occurred around the time of the vaccination. Coincidence is not correlation.

Have you made reasonable efforts to investigate Wakefield's claims before siding with his persecutors?

Are you able to offer assurance that Wakefield's accounts of the sordid history of "Pluserix" and "Immravax" are without foundation?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/full-statement-by-mmr-scare-doctor-andrew-wakefield-the-government-has-tried-to-cover-up-putting-price-before-childrens-health-8570596.html

 

[sydboy007]

Even if these studies were accurate and unbiased (which I sincerely doubt), surely you would agree that later would be preferable to sooner! Your dismissive attitude towards the rights of all humans to be supported in striving to have the happiest and healthiest life possible is something that I find completely abhorrent!

Do you believe all the human suffering caused by the eradication of small pox to have been completely abhorrent?

To put things into perspective:

http://www.infoplease.com/cig/dangerous-diseases-epidemics/smallpox-12000-years-terror.html

Smallpox continued to ravage Europe, Asia, and Africa for centuries. In Europe, near the end of the eighteenth century, the disease accounted for nearly 400,000 deaths each year, including five kings. Of those surviving, one-third were blinded. The worldwide death toll was staggering and continued well into the twentieth century, where mortality has been estimated at 300 to 500 million. This number vastly exceeds the combined total of deaths in all world wars.

In the United States, more than 100,000 cases of smallpox were recorded in 1921. Strong declines occurred after that because of the widespread use of preventive vaccines. By 1939, fewer than 50 Americans per year died of smallpox.

In 1959, The World Health Assembly decided to organize mass immunization campaigns against smallpox. The World Health Organization (WHO) announced the global smallpox eradication program in 1967. At that time there were still an estimated 10 to 15 million cases of smallpox a year resulting in two million deaths, millions disfigured, and another 100,000 blinded. Ten years later, after dispersal of 465 million doses of vaccine in 27 countries, the last reported naturally occurring case appeared in Somalia. On October 22, 1977, a 23-year-old male, Ali Maow Maalin, developed smallpox and survived.

The global campaign against smallpox ended in 1979 just two years after Maalin's case. Two additional cases of smallpox occurred in Birmingham, England, in 1978, after the virus escaped from a laboratory. There has not been a case reported in more than 25 years.

Amazingly, eradication of smallpox, one of the world's most deadly scourges, cost approximately $100 million. Even in today's dollars, this was a bargain.

Any harm that was caused, and I'm sure with the early work on vaccinations and especially variolation there was some harm and deaths, do you believe this near forced global vaccination program caused more harm than good? Do you blelieve it would have been better to have left the third world ravaged by this disease than, for all intents and purposes, forced the populations of these countries to get vaccinated. I doubt there was too much compulsion though. People growing up seeing what these diseases do would be quite willing to see themselves and their families protected. My parents and grandparents all talk of a world I hope to never know of iron lungs for children crippled by polio, friends who were badly disfigured by the pox, and just the general toll of children being sick for a week or 2 with measles and mumps.

Personally I am very grateful that the generations before me bore the risks so I could grow up in a world where tens of millions are no longer infected by a such a horrid disease.

It seems you want a 100% guaranteed safe vaccination before even considering it, yet discount the still current toll that is borne by mostly the unvaccinated.

 

[cynic]

Do you believe all the human suffering caused by the eradication of small pox to have been completely abhorrent?

...

It seems you want a 100% guaranteed safe vaccination before even considering it, yet discount the still current toll that is borne by mostly the unvaccinated.

Your opinions of my opinions are at complete variance to the contents of my posts!

I am all for people having the freedom to make fully informed choices when it comes to providing the best available health care for themselves and their children!

Please desist from ignorantly applying untrue interpretations to my posts!

 

[sydboy007]

Your opinions of my opinions are at complete variance to the contents of my posts!

I am all for people having the freedom to make fully informed choices when it comes to providing the best available health care for themselves and their children!

Please desist from ignorantly applying untrue interpretations to my posts!

Then your argument appears to be that there is more chance of harm from vaccination than not? Unless there's other choices beyond to vaccinate or not?

Pretty much all the scientific literature agrees that the risks are higher for those who do not vaccinate, and with the increasing level of air travel relying on herd immunity is becoming less of a safety net.

Stats like 1 in 10 non vaccinated children who get Measles will have a complication serious enough to result in a visit to a healthcare provider, or most children who get chickenpox will have 200-500 sores covering their body should be burned into peoples' mind when they're thinking of not getting vaccinated.

http://www.immunize.org/reports/ has the real life stories of 100 people who were not vaccinated and the often tragic consequences. Scientifically verifiable X disease caused y, unlike a lot of anecdotal evidence that person was vaccinated X time ago and now has y therefore vaccination is to blame.

 

[cynic]

Your opinions of my opinions are at complete variance to the contents of my posts!

I am all for people having the freedom to make fully informed choices when it comes to providing the best available health care for themselves and their children!

Please desist from ignorantly applying untrue interpretations to my posts!

Then your argument appears to be that there is more chance of harm from vaccination than not? Unless there's other choices beyond to vaccinate or not?

Pretty much all the scientific literature agrees that the risks are higher for those who do not vaccinate, and with the increasing level of air travel relying on herd immunity is becoming less of a safety net.

Stats like 1 in 10 non vaccinated children who get Measles will have a complication serious enough to result in a visit to a healthcare provider, or most children who get chickenpox will have 200-500 sores covering their body should be burned into peoples' mind when they're thinking of not getting vaccinated.

http://www.immunize.org/reports/ has the real life stories of 100 people who were not vaccinated and the often tragic consequences. Scientifically verifiable X disease caused y, unlike a lot of anecdotal evidence that person was vaccinated X time ago and now has y therefore vaccination is to blame.

Sydboy007,

Exactly which part of my post:

Your opinions of my opinions are at complete variance to the contents of my posts!

I am all for people having the freedom to make fully informed choices when it comes to providing the best available health care for themselves and their children!

Please desist from ignorantly applying untrue interpretations to my posts!

Did you fail to understand?

Those whom deliberately choose to continue behaving as ignorantly as you have, are deserving of my continued contempt. Again I ask you to please desist!

 

[sydboy007]

/disclaimer: this posting does not relate in any way to cynic

My view is from a risk perspective.

If risk of vaccination greater than risk from the disease being vaccinated against then don't do it.

If, as seems to be the case, the risk from vaccination is far lower than the risk of contracting the disease, then vaccination would be a clear choice.

There's plenty of scientifically verifiable information that shows what goes wrong when someone contracts a preventable disease.

There's 100 odd years of scientifically verifiable information that shows vaccination works. The risk / reward profile of vaccination seems to be firmly on the reward side.

What scientifically verifiable information is out that shows the risk of vaccination is greater than not being vaccinated? I've read a lot on this topic over the years. I've found a lot of anecdotal claims, or studies that claim harm which are then debunked later on. Unless you believe there's a global conspiracy of IPCC proportions it would seem near impossible to hide large scale harm from vaccination.

Studies in the USA have shown consistently that the majority of people who don't vaccinate do so because of:

* Philosophical beliefs - fear of harm from vaccination, believe it's better to build immunity from contracting the disease, belief that a healthy life style provides enough protection.

* Religious beliefs

I would say a similar profile for most western countries as the USA.

Are they right or wrong reasons? No. They just don't make sense to me.

Maybe I've been in IT too long following logic paths, but I don't understand how some people choose to discount all the credible research that shows vaccination is safe and well worth the very small risk to adverse reactions

 

[bellenuit]

What scientifically verifiable information is out that shows the risk of vaccination is greater than not being vaccinated? I've read a lot on this topic over the years. I've found a lot of anecdotal claims, or studies that claim harm which are then debunked later on.

I think the problem is that in many communities the very few anecdotal claims of harm from vaccination will be contrasted with the claims from those who didn't vaccinate that they have not contracted contagious illnesses. But like the article said, the reason they have been immune is because the herd is vaccinated and is thus protecting them. They don't realise that.

A great example of this going wrong is this recent case posted previously:

Measles Outbreak Traces To Vaccine-Refusing Megachurch

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywi...tbreak-traces-to-vaccine-refusing-megachurch/

 

[Judd]

This particular site may be useful for those interested.

http://www.cochrane.org/

 

[sydboy007]

I think the problem is that in many communities the very few anecdotal claims of harm from vaccination will be contrasted with the claims from those who didn't vaccinate that they have not contracted contagious illnesses. But like the article said, the reason they have been immune is because the herd is vaccinated and is thus protecting them. They don't realise that.

A great example of this going wrong is this recent case posted previously:

Measles Outbreak Traces To Vaccine-Refusing Megachurch

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywi...tbreak-traces-to-vaccine-refusing-megachurch/

I find it tragicly funny that while anti vacinators generally don't trust the medical profession on being honest that vaccination is relatively safe, they look to the same medical professionals to help when something goes wrong.

Some serious cognitive dissonance there

 

[bellenuit]

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/one-map-sums-damage-caused-anti-vaccination-movement

One map sums up the damage caused by the anti-vaccination movement

 

[cynic]

Have you made reasonable efforts to investigate Wakefield's claims before siding with his persecutors?

Are you able to offer assurance that Wakefield's accounts of the sordid history of "Pluserix" and "Immravax" are without foundation?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/full-statement-by-mmr-scare-doctor-andrew-wakefield-the-government-has-tried-to-cover-up-putting-price-before-childrens-health-8570596.html

Would any of the pro-vaccination posters care to proffer informed answers to my earlier questions?