Immunisation, right or wrong?

cynic said:

Craton,

Thankyou so much for your well considered post.

I found the circumspection displayed within most refreshing, and I'm glad that your choices have worked out well for yourself and family.

It's comforting to encounter one that shares an appreciation for the freedom to make informed choices (based upon best available resources) and accepting responsibility for the outcomes.
(I like to believe that's the reason each human is born fully equipped with its own personal brain - so that they needn't be solely dependent upon a collective decision making authority.)

Whilst controversy can often polarize a population into extreme viewpoints, making it difficult for members to equip themselves with impartial information when deciding issues, I don't wish to see freedom of choice regarding medication of oneself and one's own children legislated out of existence.

Given the above, if there was a push by government to completely outlaw vaccination, whilst I mightn't be nearly so outspoken on the issue, I certainly wouldn't be supporting that campaign either.

Click to expand...

Cheers cynic, pleasure to contribute. Thanks too for you candid and well articulated reply.

Briefly and by way of conclusion.

Firm believer in that one must do the best one can, with the knowledge and resources available at the time and more importantly, that one must accept the consequences of one's decisions and actions.

Now don't get me wrong, there was a tense period when our children had those first inoculations but we wouldn't be human if we don't have self doubts and concerns. So yeah, I'm more than glad it worked out OK too.

Regarding the touted legislation, another touchy area no doubt.

I agree that there is too much legislation as it is and like the rest of us, I enjoy having the freedom to make my own decisions/choices but I'm not totally opposed to this law being enacted. I can see that if the situation is left unchecked, the distinct disconnect between vaxxed and unvaxxed will further split and divide our society. Separate pre-schools being just the start, increased costs for new parents and I shudder to think of the long term consequences of this highly emotive matter down the track. I'd really hate to see those anti-vaxx segregated and penalised.

Seems to me that bringing this regulation in as much as I don't like it, is a necessary erosion of parenting rights for the above reasons. No doubt an indemnity clause will be passed within the law thus exonerating the authorities (and so too I would think, the parents) should things go awry. I'm interested to hear what would happen to those that would oppose or refuse immunisation due to religious beliefs. Surely they can't be exempt as that would make a mockery of the law?

Still, the bill hasn't been passed nor have we heard the full details so I'm sure there will be a lot of discussion yet to come.

FWIW.
Yikes, a quick Google Fu of mandatory immunisation is an eye opener.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/health/flu-vaccine-paradox-adds-to-public-health-debate-1.2912790

There is a bit of flu vaccine related discussion occuŕring on the science thread at present, however, I thought this article might be more suited to this thread, rather than one intended for discussion of a broader spectrum of science.

With the in excess of Fifty needless deaths of children in Samoa, and the unfortunate probability that this number will rise. Ancillary to this the curtailing of social interaction and trade in an attempt to slow the spread of the preventable Measles epidemic now gripping the Pacific Nation.
Immunisation would be hard pressed to mount a case 'As Wrong'

The wanton disregard for the suffering and unnecessary death of one child is bad enough. But the poisonous ignorant drivel spruked under the protections of free speech has consequences.
Manipulative misrepresentations, which in %99.9 of cases that are simple to digest by those with little or no understanding of medicine or history stokes a situation where we have the human disaster now infecting Samoa.
My Contempt for the anti vaccer brigade has cost me friends hopefully it has saved a life or the distuction of a good one.

orr said:

The wanton disregard for the suffering and unnecessary death of one child is bad enough. But the poisonous ignorant drivel spruked under the protections of free speech has consequences.
Manipulative misrepresentations, which in %99.9 of cases that are simple to digest by those with little or no understanding of medicine or history stokes a situation where we have the human disaster now infecting Samoa.

Click to expand...

We're unfortunately living in an age where anti-intellectualism is a thing and many aren't ashamed of it.

Sad but true.

It 's a good article pointing out nothing that Noam Chomsky wasn't saying 45-50yrs ago...
The punitive trade sanctions placed on Cuba causing the shortages affecting the safe storage of vaccines leads to the deaths of innocents... along with poor regulation on the sub-continent.
Great to see you highlighting cause and effect cyinc.

It's funny how some neglect the science, for some issues and embrace it for other issues.
Aka climate change, as opposed to mass vaccination.

60 dead in Samoa and many more seriously that came close to death over last two months , mostly children due to inoculation rates only at 40%. It appears the anti vaxxers had success in this little nation who are now suffering due to their gullibility.

The tiny population is in despair and a mass inoculation run by the Red Cross is now taking place.

I am not posting a link. Go to your preferred news source and follow it.

Note the presence, within this WHO report, of what appears to be a suspiciously significant correlation between sickness and immunisation.


http://www.euro.who.int/en/media-ce...rope-record-number-of-both-sick-and-immunized

You didn't read the report properly leading to a wrong conclusion.
Read it again and tell me why your statement is wrong. 3/10.

Also you have ignored main article posted previously where many children are dying in an island nation after successful anti vaxxer propaganda effort.

Please undertake research and address to get a pass in this subject.

Please also address within your report why anti vaxxers have now been arrested and why the mothers who fell for their propaganda resulting in their children dying want legal recourse.

http://www.euro.who.int/en/media-ce...rope-record-number-of-both-sick-and-immunized
For the benefit of those whom "didn't read the report properly" before accusing me of same, I draw attention to the following sentence, which confirms the validity of my earlier observation:

While data indicate an exceptionally high immunization coverage at regional level, they also reflect a record number affected and killed by the disease.

Click to expand...

And?

Knobby22 said:

... Please undertake research and address to get a pass in this subject.

Click to expand...

Right back at you!

Please also address within your report why anti vaxxers have now been arrested and why the mothers who fell for their propaganda resulting in their children dying want legal recourse.

Click to expand...

I cannot seem to find any references to the things you mention here, within the report I posted, which leads me to wonder, are you asking me to do your research for you?

Knobby22 said:

And?

Click to expand...

An apology for the wrongful accusation would be nice!

Please read the report, not just mouth whatever the anti vaxxer site or bot gave you. I can't be bothered going through it with you. Just read it. It's clear and obvious. The disease occurred in isolated areas where the vaccine rate had dropped below 95%. I would also point out the reason measles is around again in such large numbers is due to the drop in vaccine rates in some parts of the world.

Meanwhile, I will post soon on the anti vaxxer arrest.

ANTI VAXXER ARRESTED IN SOMOA

Samoa has arrested an anti-vaccination campaigner as the country continues to battle a deadly measles outbreak.

Edwin Tamasese was charged with incitement against a government order after he was detained on Thursday.

The outbreak - which has killed at least 63 people, mostly young children, since October - is in part blamed on people spreading false information, claiming vaccinations are dangerous.

Samoa declared a state of emergency, and made vaccinations compulsory.

• Why is the UK seeing a rise in measles cases?
• The countries that trust vaccines the least
• Measles deaths 'staggering and tragic'

Measles is a highly contagious illness that causes coughing, rashes and fever.

Although effective and safe vaccination is available, even some developed countries have seen a resurgence in recent years as unfounded fears about vaccine safety began to spread, often on social media.

Who was arrested?
Mr Tamasese had spoken out against vaccines on Facebook, instead promoting using ineffective remedies such as papaya leaf extract to treat the deadly illness.

Before his arrest, he had described the government's mass vaccination programme as "the greatest crime against our people", and falsely claimed vitamin C could cure the infected children.

Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
Image captionAuthorities warn that children are particularly at risk from the disease
Samoa's low vaccination rates are in part due to the deaths in 2018 of two children wrongly being attributed to vaccination against measles, mumps and rubella.

However, their deaths were due to nurses mixing the vaccine with a muscle relaxant instead of water, and not the vaccine itself.

The cases had nonetheless raised local fears, and were exploited by people seeking false proof that vaccines are harmful.

'Don't get in the way'
The current crisis in Samoa has also triggered many foreign anti-vaccination campaigners to weigh in and criticising the country's drive to immunise its children, which is trying to lift the level of measles vaccination coverage to more than 90%.

Samoa's Communications Minister Afamasaga Rico Tupai said anti-vaccination activists - also known as "anti-vaxxers" - are spreading conspiracy theories which were hindering the unprecedented public health mobilisation.

"The anti-vaxxers unfortunately have been slowing us down," he told TVNZ.

"We've had children who have passed away after coming to the hospital as a last resort and then we find out the anti-vaccine message has got to their families and that's why they've kept these kids at home."

He warned anti-vaccine campaigners: "Don't get in the way, don't contribute to the deaths."



Media captionIt's a numbers game... if some people are not vaccinated, it can cause a big problem for us all
His words were echoed by Unicef representative to the Pacific Dr Sheldon Yett, who told the BBC earlier this month that "people who are spreading lies and misinformation about vaccinations are killing children".

"The best way to keep children safe is to make sure they're immunised. Preventing vaccination and presenting false information kills children. That is clear - the evidence speaks for itself."

Vaccination is not the only way Samoa is trying to end the outbreak. Earlier this week unvaccinated families were asked to hang a red flag outside their homes, while all schools have been closed and children under 17 are banned from public gatherings.

Knobby22 said:

Please read the report, not just mouth whatever the anti vaxxer site or bot gave you. I can't be bothered going through it with you. Just read it. It's clear and obvious. The disease occurred in isolated areas where the vaccine rate had dropped below 95%. I would also point out the reason measles is around again in such large numbers is due to the drop in vaccine rates in some parts of the world.

Meanwhile, I will post soon on the anti vaxxer arrest.

Click to expand...

Two apologies for unfounded and wrongful accusations are now owed, but do not distress! I do understand that religious indoctrination such as that which is on display can be quite difficult to surmount, so I shall not be holding my breath.

sptrawler said:

It's funny how some neglect the science, for some issues and embrace it for other issues.
Aka climate change, as opposed to mass vaccination.

Click to expand...

My exact feeling
Let's put figures, facts, real absent of manipulation and the billions spent on co2 would have better impacts elsewhere, and mitigation first
I am sure some kids died from immunisation, got paralyzed horrible stuff
But how many more are alive because of it, the generations of tuberculosis and polio affected life we avoided
The effect of what is ignorance in maths and scienced allows this exploitation, and the latest figures on math literacy do not show a bright future
We have never have so much access to knowledge, could only dream of, but with no investigative minds we just have parrots sharing facebook, Greta and the Guardian or news ltd
What a failure