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Hydrogen


During my high school economics classes in the 80’s we were shown example after example of governments trying to pick winners and failing.

Government should only take on infrastructure builds that are necessary for community but unprofitable or too costly for private businesses.
 
Basic problem at Whyalla isn't the hydrogen but rather it's the viability of the steelworks itself no matter what energy sources and technologies it uses.

Yes, however, the cost and viability of the hydrogen project has not helped.

Billionaire Sanjeev Gupta’s sprawling GFG Alliance no longer runs the Whyalla Steelworks after legislation rushed through both houses of Parliament today.
The state government has appointed advisory and investment firm KordaMentha as an administrator of the Steelworks, to stabilise operations and explore a possible sale to a new owner.

 
We had to act to avoid disaster at Whyalla, Malinauskas says. South Australian Premier Peter Malinauskas says putting the Whyalla steelworks into administration was about no less than saving sovereign steelmaking in Australia.

I agree.

Though I still beleive that the best way to save our manufacturing industry is cheap energy, using current resources of our own coal, gas, and uranium.

And we all may be looking at a future Prime Minister in Peter M.

 
And we all may be looking at a future Prime Minister in Peter M.
Let's just say you aren't the first person to have that thought and nor am I.

Many have for the simple reason that if you start talking about this stuff, you'll find he's thinking nationally not locally.

Back to hydrogen and energy, ultimately there's really three layers that determine what works and what doesn't with all of this.

1. Hard sciences and anything based around them. Flexibility here is zero, it's as rigid as it gets - physics, chemistry, geology, hydrology and so on either the numbers add up or they don't.

2. Economics. It can be bent to a limited extent but only a limited one. Go too far and it ends badly but the flexibility isn't zero.

3. Soft sciences, politics, religion and so on. It can be bent infinitely but ultimately you need to get them to agree to letting you do it otherwise it ain't happening.

Armed with that knowledge, it's relatively straightforward to cut through a lot of the nonsense.

Some but not all uses of hydrogen pass the first requirement of being technically workable. Hydrogen can certainly be produced from water, it can be burned in a gas turbine and so on. No chance we're running 100% pure hydrogen to households though, that idea has so many fatal flaws it's just not happening at least not without a few breakthroughs.

Economics is more problematic simply because none of it's a constant. The cost of producing hydrogen will vary with scale even in the same location. How hydrogen at any given cost compares with something else is also variable, it's not a set ratio given efficiency variation in different applications and differences in what the alternatives cost at any given location. So it's very much an individual case of doing the numbers.

What I can say though is so far as I'm aware the economics for hydrogen looked better at Whyalla than for any other specific industrial use in Australia simply because there's at least some export market at a premium price for product produced using it. So if it doesn't work there, it's not looking good to work anywhere.
 
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Having yesterday taken unprecedented action to force the Whyalla Steelworks into administration through special-purpose legislation, the state government has partnered with the Commonwealth to announce a $2.4 billion support package for the steel industry in South Australia.
But the state government’s $600 million green hydrogen project – planned to complement the steelmaking operations in Whyalla – has been “deferred”, Premier Peter Malinauskas said.

 

The South Australian Government's plan to build a major hydrogen electrolyser and power plant near Whyalla has effectively been scrapped, with the Premier Peter Malinauskas blaming the lack of progress on a plan for green steel at the local steelworks for the decision.

And this is a perfect example of why governments should not try to pick winners with taxpayer money. The site for the plant has been cleared, roads started, foundations and piping laid, machinery purchased and ordered.

Plans for a $600 million hydrogen plant at Whyalla shelved as government announces steelworks support package


 
And this is a perfect example of why governments should not try to pick winners with taxpayer money. The site for the plant has been cleared, roads started, foundations and piping laid, machinery purchased and ordered.
The counterargument is no pain, no gain.

If we want winners then having losers is inevitably going to be part of that. But so long as the wins exceed the losses then it's profitable overall.

The real lesson I'll argue is about the type of people who do things and how decisions are made and that the key to a high performance organisation is decisions need to be made by those who have the qualifications and experience to be making them.

In the case of Whyalla, well here's a bit of information about the owner:


I'll leave others to form their own judgements.

It's not hydrogen technology that's failed here. It's a financial failure of the owner of the steelworks. It's not as though the steelworks has actually been using hydrogen after all, or even made an effort to start building in order to be able to use it. For that matter they haven't been overly successful at making steel using coke either but that's another story.
 
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It’s not a governments role to gamble with the communities wellbeing using the no pain no gain philosophy.

The government is responsible for coming up with ideas for how to run the country. They make policies – plans of action –, propose new laws and put new laws into action for Australia

The hydrogen plant was always a gamble, the expense far outweighed any benefits promised to the tax payers and a steel plant using 1970’s technology.

If the government was seriously thinking about the blue collar workers and their future they would have ensured that the steel industry had access to the cheapest form of power, which would have allowed for productivity and profit to grow and improve the company.

Instead we have government trying to green the country with expensive carbon free energy, while competing with countries like China, India and Indonesia. And now the USA.

History shows that governments have a terrible track record of picking successful industries and businesses. And the hydrogen industry that Labor has been pushing is failing in front of us.
 
TURBINES FOR HYDROGEN PLANT never used, STILL IN WRAPING. Make an offer. SA Labor.


The green hydrogen dream is just about dead. The SA government was the last serious builder of the dream, and several weeks ago they knew that it was in trouble. But they couldn't pull the plug without a good reason, it would cause them and the federal government pain, especially the Albanese government with an election to be called soon. And then the perfect escape clause fell into their laps, Whyalla steel works.
 
Where there's a will there is always whyalla
 
I understand your sentiment John, but Australia has an opportunity on a small scale, to try and see if green steel is possible.

It really is an opportunity, at a relatively small cost, to either prove it or disprove it.
To not do so would cost many times more money, supporting a green dream of green steel when it actually isn't feasible.

Australia can't afford to lose its ability to produce steel, it would leave us badly strategically exposed in a military sense, but to keep heading down a path that is destined for failure is just as bad.

So really it is like a lot of other things that should have been done, but weren't because it 'costs a lot', if it isn't done tge end result could be far worse IMO.
 

That boat has sailed. The upgrades will use gas, hydrogen is off the books for many years.

The best way to make our manufacturing industry competitive is to use our existing natural occurring resources, like coal, gas and uranium. Future green energy planning should concentrate on a nuclear power industry, like the majority of the manufacturing nations are currently doing. Hydrogen will be a niche energy industry for the foreseeable future.

And forget about wind and solar, all the components come from China. All we are doing is paying China a premium so that we can claim green electricity while we charge our consumers higher prices than comparable nations. How is that good for our industry?

Australia is a minnow in the manufacturing and energy world, we need to concentrate on what we have at our disposal. Coal, Gas, Nuclear.

 
Just eight hydrogen projects in South Australia are active, with a further seven moved quietly to a list of archived projects on the CSIRO website. This list of archived projects includes the South Australian Government’s $600 million hydrogen facility
Other archived projects include Neoen Australia’s Crystal Brook Energy Park near Port Pirie – which received $1 million in state government funding for a feasibility study – and the company’s proposed hydrogen export project near Burra which received state government approval in 2021.


 
A major $750m green hydrogen plant has been axed in South Australia, a fresh setback for the fledgling industry just days after Anthony Albanese pledged the clean-energy source would help underpin its Future Made in Australia plan.

 
I find it sad that the push to Net Zero, commendable as it may be, fails the pub test when it comes to the actual engineering/science/technology versus the environment and economic payoffs.

Of greater concern is the amount of dollars apparently p*ssed against the wind when projects like the one mentioned above, are scuttled due to logic finally rearing it's plain and all-to-real head.

With Sth Aust. such a water poor state, perhaps the focus there should be on, you know, water. Then maybe, my little grey cells reckon, hydrogen might become a spin-off and viable industry.
 
Of greater concern is the amount of dollars apparently p*ssed against the wind when projects like the one mentioned above, are scuttled due to logic finally rearing it's plain and all-to-real head.
Hard sciences always prevail over soft sciences.

Always. No matter how strongly the soft science advocates make their case, they'll always lose if whatever they're trying to do is at odds with hard science.

None of this needs to be done by trial and error and there are people who can and did do the maths on all of this quite some time ago. It ain't rocket science, it's just engineering that's all.

In the SA context the Whyalla project was the closest to being viable financially as a "pure" hydrogen project. In other words if it doesn't stack up there then it won't stack up elsewhere unless some unexpected factor tilts the table (eg someone builds a factory that for technical reasons needs hydrogen as part of the process for example).

Realistically the others in Australia that have some chance of economic viability are the Bell Bay Powerfuels project in Tasmania plus more generically the idea of blending hydrogen at relatively low concentration into natural gas for distribution plus another very specific industrial one (I'll avoid naming the company as I don't think they've gone public with it - they've no need to as it's purely for their own use on site).

That said, the Bell Bay project depends on there being others (overseas) willing to pay big $ for the product, in which case the cost is their problem. That does seem to be the case, there's a market for the methanol produced that way, in which case the underlying economics aren't a problem for the company, Tasmania or indeed Australia. Plus it repurposes some existing redundant infrastructure, including a 120m high stack and a wharf, and has no major electrical network infrastructure costs since it's literally at a decommissioned oil-fired power station site (that's what the stack and wharf was for).

With Sth Aust. such a water poor state, perhaps the focus there should be on, you know, water. Then maybe, my little grey cells reckon, hydrogen might become a spin-off and viable industry.
This actually was the plan with the Whyalla project.

A 600km water pipeline serving multiple uses being part of the plan and that may still be built.

Capacity when fully developed being 260 megalitres per day.

On all of this it comes down to physics, engineering and real economics. Only if all that stacks up does politics, management, law and so on have any relevance. Because if the hard science and economics don't work, the rest just isn't happening.

In the case of the water project the hard science does stack up, at least on preliminary analysis it does, and the economics looks at least plausible. Hence the willingness of private enterprise to work with government further investigating it - it's a plausible idea that, thus far at least, has no known reason it can't be done either physical or financial. It's not a random thought bubble.
 
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Great reply/synopsis again @Smurf1976, thanks mate.
Yep, leave the pollies out of it until the rubber stamp is required for the go-ahead.
 
I think Australia is hopeless at engineering anything, we just don't have the talent.

Let's see how plug goes.


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Amazon adopts green hydrogen to help decarbonize its operations

 
Another government hydrogen project cancelled

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If there's little infrastructure for it, trying to use hydrogen is pointless. Electrifying transport is going to be easier because most of the infrastructure is already there and the vehicles are much simpler. I don't think it's over for hydrogen, the tech is growing day by day.


There's cool geek stuff going on in the world, just not in the land of down under.

"In the summer of 2023, the Rijnstate hospital of Elst, The Netherlands opened its doors. What makes this particular campus interesting is how it generates its energy. Heat pumps, PV panels, and an electrolyzer all work in concert to maintain a constant supply of power. The building collects energy from over 1,300 solar panels located on both the roof and the ground floor. When there’s a surplus of solar, that energy goes toward electrolysis, the splitting action that produces hydrogen. This then allows for hydrogen fuel cells to kick in as a form of reserve power when the sunnier supplies are low.

The Rijnstate isn’t the only hospital that integrated hydrogen into its energy generation this year. Just recently, the Viamed San José Hospital located in Murcia, Spain, installed a system that involves powering the creation of hydrogen through its 289 solar panels. The resulting hydrogen feeds into a boiler for space heating. Meanwhile, the oxygen produced as a byproduct of the electrolysis is then repurposed as a critical resource for medical procedures."


 
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