Anzac Day

[noirua]

Me? an ex serviceman. Like many of my cohorts I have never been to an Anzac day ceremony and never will. War is best remembered as total folly instigated by those who are well past fighting age.

It is beyond my comprehension how anyone can conjure up visions of noble acts and willing self sacrifice when the reality is young person (friend or foe) lying in his own gore screaming (usually for his mother) while his life ebbs away.

There comes the time when very few are left, and you have to represent all those who have fallen, whatever your personal views.
A Canadian, who was the last survivor of the Boar War new this. If I don't go, there's no one left to take my place, he was then 111 years old.

 

[robert toms]

The people that I know that have served in actual war events,do not want to be reminded of it.Without exception they do not speak of their experiences and only attest to the folly of war.
This Gallipolli journey seems to have become a cult event .You had to be there!
As Hebrides said the old men start the wars and the young men fight them.
They do this for a variety of reasons,young,adventurous and reckless rate very highly.
Australia has only been threatened once and that was by the Japanese in WW2.
However ,as the Japanese war histories show,there were never any plans to invade Australia.
Their two main objectives were the metals in Manchuria and the oil in Indonesia.Any thrust toward Australia and bombing of Darwin were ,I assume,to keep enemies from striking distance of their oil.
I have got war relics from my uncle buried,along with his faithful dog,on my property.
Injuries and resulting bad medical treatment ruined his life...I think that he marched once on Anzac day.

 

[Prospector]

The people that I know that have served in actual war events,do not want to be reminded of it.Without exception they do not speak of their experiences and only attest to the folly of war.

Injuries and resulting bad medical treatment ruined his life...I think that he marched once on Anzac day.

Yes, I agree with that. My grandfather refused to apply for his war service medals; he said that if he had to apply for them then they weren't worth it (not sure if you still have to do this, I am talking many years ago now.) My mother said when he returned from WWI he wouldn't even set a mouse trap because he had already seen too much killing. He never marched either. Nor did my Dad.

My Grandfather suffered from being in the trenches and returned to Australia with a much weakened heart. But the Government wouldn't even acknowledge that his illnesses were a result of war service. As I posted earlier, he died of a heart condition in his early fifties - no other member of my family (on that side) has heart problems.

When I see the publicity that even 1 death of a soldier receives now, I don't think the media could have 'survived' the deaths experienced during the Great Wars. None of those soldiers received anything like the offer of a state funeral, nor a PM condolence speech like they get now.

 

[wayneL]

Yes, I agree with that. My grandfather refused to apply for his war service medals; he said that if he had to apply for them then they weren't worth it (not sure if you still have to do this, I am talking many years ago now.) My mother said when he returned from WWI he wouldn't even set a mouse trap because he had already seen too much killing. He never marched either. Nor did my Dad.

My Grandfather suffered from being in the trenches and returned to Australia with a much weakened heart. But the Government wouldn't even acknowledge that his illnesses were a result of war service. As I posted earlier, he died of a heart condition in his early fifties - no other member of my family (on that side) has heart problems.

When I see the publicity that even 1 death of a soldier receives now, I don't think the media could have 'survived' the deaths experienced during the Great Wars. None of those soldiers received anything like the offer of a state funeral, nor a PM condolence speech like they get now.

My old man avoided anything to do with the war like the plague as well.

I suppose it all depends on the person's dominant thought. My Dad only saw the folly of old men, the horror he had to endure, and the inconsiderate treatments of ex-servicemen when it was all over ... got his medals but then chucked them into the North Atlantic. He would never talk about, and he felt betrayed. He just wanted to block it all out.

Other people see the war through the contribution they and their mates made together, a bond that will never be broken and #### the governments that started it.

I look at it as a way to honour the people in circumstances they could not control and #### whatever the reasons unstable old men used to justify it and in no way a glorification of war... quite the opposite.

 

[Julia]

Robert, Prospector and Wayne: thank you for providing some balance against the increasing romanticisation of war. Every Anzac Day when we see so many young people weeping at Gallipoli I wonder just what is going on in their heads.

This following observation from Crikey might be out of place on this thread.
Hope it doesn't seem insensitive. I think it's relevant.

4 . There's no Anzac in Afghanistan
Jeff Sparrow writes:

Terrorism expert Clive Williams recently provided a helpful insight into the Pashtun devil-children we face in Afghanistan:

They, of course, have a very long experience of fighting, particularly against foreigners. […] That is their way of life. To be a man in their society, to be regarded as manly, you've got to have war experience. Their culture is built around fighting others.

A Pashtun academic studying the recent Anzac Day celebrations might, with equal legitimacy, come to the same conclusion about Australians.

The death of everyone who actually suffered during the Great War has severed the always tenuous connection between Anzac and reality, transforming the occasion into a free floating signifier of military virtue. Thus Kevin Rudd was able to sum up the disastrous Gallipoli invasion in terms of “the deep sense of liberty for which our forebears fought.”

It was, presumably, that love for liberty that enabled us to beat off Johnny Turk when he stormed Sydney Harbour … oh, wait.

The prevalence of such national fantasies about military history would matter less if we weren’t currently involved in a real war, in which, as we’ve just discovered, real people really die.

The occupation of Afghanistan has now been underway for significantly longer than the First World War. Yet are Australians any clearer about what our contingent is supposedly doing in that country than they were about the aims of the Gallipoli campaign?

Certainly, the politicians don’t seem to be.

Following the death of Lance Corporal Jason Marks, Rudd predicted that many more lives would be lost. So why remain?

“We are there,” he said, “because a failed state was giving open succour and support to a global terrorist organisation, al-Qaeda, which then attacked our ally the US on September the 11th, 2001, and in the process, murdered 3000 people."

Brendan Nelson added casually that the war might last for a generation. He threw the Bali bombings into the mix, on the basis that three of the perpetrators supposedly trained in Afghanistan.

The fatuousness of suggestions that an occupation of Afghanistan makes terrorism in our region less likely means that, on the rare occasions that the war actually features in our newspapers, it’s usually presented in the kinds of mythic terms that Rudd used on Anzac Day.

“We are a good people,” he said, “who want for the good of others.”

Yet despite the undeniable odiousness of the Taliban, the complex situation in Afghanistan scarcely translates into a simple morality play. For a start, the government brought into power by the US invasion consists largely of warlords, with a grim record of human rights abuses. The campaign against opium production which plays so well in the Western press leaves local farmers impoverished and embittered. That’s why there’s been a rise in popular support for the Taliban, with US generals expecting record levels of attacks in 2008.

More fundamentally, the history of Afghanistan over the last century involves a string of occupations, all of which generated popular resistance. No-one’s been able to explain why this one should be any different.

Michelle Grattan’s scarcely some anti-war hippy. But note her conclusion: “We are in a conflict with no time frame, a significant likelihood that it will turn out badly in the end, and no exit strategy."

 

[Buster]

G'Day Julia,

thank you for providing some balance against the increasing romanticisation of war.

Is that what’s occurring here?? I thought there was simply some support for those that don the uniform.. Romanticisation of War?? Are you kidding me?? I doubt you'll find many that join the service to 'get amongst it'..

Obviously I cannot comment on the events that took place before my lifetime, however, there has been some 'discussion' about the role of the services in recent times, particularly IRAQ.. I may be able to share an observation..

The young girls and guys that join the military today certainly don't expect to find themselves covered in blood and guts on the battlefield, I mean honestly, who would join if they REALLY expected to be part of that.. No they join to 'do the right thing' and to 'help others that cannot help themselves'.. maybe it sounds corny to you, but in it's simplest form it's to protect others from the 'bullies' of the world..

Yes, sometimes you find yourself caught up in a situation that you didn't expect to occur.. unfortunately you don't get a choice of where and when you go as a serviceman, no matter what your personal views are, but that's life in the suit..

I march and I wear my medals proudly.. No warmonger, no superhuman.. But I've not experienced the true 'Horrors' of War.. The irony is that the terrible actions that occurred during the real 'Wars' NEED to be 'celebrated', not for 'romanticisation of war' but to remind the rest of the population of what actually occurred..

Anyway, rant off..

Regards,

Buster

P.S. I’ve deleted a whole swag of stuff, so I hope it's still reasonably coherent..

 

[robert toms]

What worries me is when it does become a romantic notion...every conflict that we have been involved in is always preceded by a heavy inculcation or propaganda campaign.
Demonstratably the biggest bully since world war two is the US...but we blindly follow them ,I believe ,to buy insurance in case we are attacked.
The way Australia has behaved we make ourselves a target.
When Australian SAS troops come home bragging how many Iraqis that they killed ,I think that our involvement is in question.
I believe that Australia is a post-colonial country,ill at ease and incongruous with the region.
It takes commitment and honesty to act with goodwill and intelligence in world affairs,and not run with a pack.
These are the questions that we should pay attention to on Anzac day.
One incident that was indicative Australia's inability to live in the region was the Corby affair.An Australian drug trafficker was caught cold in Denpasar....what did the Australian media and their blind followers do?..question Indonesian integrity and honesty.The judges became blind monkeys.
What we should also do on Anzac is question Australia's place in the world,and why we are a country that ends up in so many conflicts.
When the Chinese ,during the Vietnam war,talked about the US and its running dogs...the penny dropped for me ,at last.
Could not argue with that.

 

[Sean K]

Robert, Prospector and Wayne: thank you for providing some balance against the increasing romanticisation of war.

ANZAC Day is romanticising war? Golly Julia, which Dawn Services have you been going to?

I missed this year, because I ´m indisposed, but didn ´t miss the previous 15 which were normally with my unit. They were hardly celebrations.

 

[numbercruncher]

When Australian SAS troops come home bragging how many Iraqis that they killed ,I think that our involvement is in question.

Ive never heard any Australian servicemen "Bragging" about how many "Iraqis" they killed.

Ive seen seen no shortage of fascists bragging about how many westeners theyve killed via the media though, and even more disturbingly what they want to do to westerners or more loosely unbelievers.

 

[Julia]

The people that I know that have served in actual war events,do not want to be reminded of it.Without exception they do not speak of their experiences and only attest to the folly of war.
This Gallipolli journey seems to have become a cult event .You had to be there!
As Hebrides said the old men start the wars and the young men fight them.
They do this for a variety of reasons,young,adventurous and reckless rate very highly.
Australia has only been threatened once and that was by the Japanese in WW2.
However ,as the Japanese war histories show,there were never any plans to invade Australia.
Their two main objectives were the metals in Manchuria and the oil in Indonesia.Any thrust toward Australia and bombing of Darwin were ,I assume,to keep enemies from striking distance of their oil.
I have got war relics from my uncle buried,along with his faithful dog,on my property.
Injuries and resulting bad medical treatment ruined his life...I think that he marched once on Anzac day.

If I've offended anyone with the use of the word 'romanticisation' I apologise.
What I was trying to reflect was Robert's sentence 'I think he marched once on Anzac Day" above and other comments similarly making it clear that many of those who served did not want any reminders of any part of it.

Buddy, of course I respect people who genuinely want to protect Australia, or act as peacekeepers.
I believe a Defence Force should be that, but not a force of aggression against other countries, viz Iraq, Afghanistan etc. What I hate is when, e.g. GW Bush solemnly looks over yet another huge number of coffins of the young men and women of his country and say stuff like "they gave their lives in a just cause" etc etc. Hopefully with our new government we may be somewhat less likely to blindly do America's bidding.

I don't think I'm doing very well at explaining what I mean. Absolutely understand the commemmoration of people who gave their lives, but worry that sometimes that sense of the nobility of so doing can translate into some sort of glorification of war.

 

[davedelaney]

G/day everyone, names Dave & a newie here & have been enjoying reading, I have been particularly interested in your Anzac thread as my poem was read by Lt.Col. Paul Murphy (Ret.) at Villers-Bretonneux school & 2 of my books 1st vol & 2nd vol. were presented to the school for their library. I will paste the poem for you all to read.

Villers-Bretonneux

As we gather here this day on this historic occasion
Dignitaries, visitors and locals feeling heartfelt emotion
Remembering our Diggers repelling a ferocious German force
Helping to slow the advancing war, “history changing course”

Advance they did under darkness with typical larrikinism
These battle weary men, moving forward with precision
On the 25th of April, the Germans encircled and trapped
Our Anzacs closed in, their energy all but sapped

The enemy, those not caught, bolted at a great pace
This town in ruins, devastation shown on the locals’ face
Soon the rebuilding started, chateaux, churches and homes
The gratitude of these people, forever will be known

Saluting the thousands, for freedom they gave their life
In this time where oppressive and inhumane death was rife
To the 1200 brave young men who never returned
Their spirits in the vast fields, are forever interned

So for the beautiful people of Villers-Bretonneux
My heartfelt words I write for all, will be forever heard
Your thoughts and kindness in our minds leaves no doubt
That international mateship, yes! This is what it’s about

To remember and honour our Anzacs every April as well
We acknowledge your suffering, at what seemed like hell
Working together side by side, rebuilding your town
Time has proved over the years, our friendship has no bounds

While back home, in the city or outback riding the fences
Those that returned, for a while forgetting the horror trenches
Remembering this town, and proudly wearing the slouched hat
Warmly referring to these wonderful folk simply as “Mate”

Now one thing that stands clear through all this ceremony
Something that can’t be bought for any sum of money
Three simple words, prove our friendship will never be a failure
N’oublions jamais I’Australie or never forget Australia.

Lest we forget.

David J Delaney

 

[Prospector]

Hi Dave and welcome. That was certainly an honour for you - I take it you are a war historian?

Maybe you could explain why it is only this year that there has been any focus at all on Villers Bretonneux, given that on the 25th April 90 years ago, the Australians gained a major foothold against the German onslaught. I didn't even know about the actual date until this year, nor I think, did most Australians. Yet my grandfather served there. All we would hear about in the media for Anzac Day was the Gallipoli story, which was a monumental military failure. So, I guess, why has the VB story been completely ignored until now?

 

[robert toms]

Of course you haven't heard of any Australians bragging about their kill rate in Iraq.
The article appeared briefly in the the West Australian newspaper...the SAS troops also suggested that they should all get medals.
When I tried to trace the article a few hours later it was gone...no doubt some junior employees got into trouble for printing info not in the national interest.
If we think that Australians,both civilian or military, are far better or far worse than anyone else....we have been deluded by our own propaganda.
I tried to get my local member ,Alexander Downer,to verify the story for me and of course he would not buy into that.

 

[Prospector]

I tried to get my local member ,Alexander Downer,to verify the story for me and of course he would not buy into that.

A bit damp in the Hills today robert? Good to see at last!:

Sorry :topic

 

[numbercruncher]

Of course you haven't heard of any Australians bragging about their kill rate in Iraq.

Tom your a smart guy surely you can see the difference between Bragging about their Kill rate (If indeed they did) and Bragging about how many Iraqis they killed as you said in your original post ?


Also you automatically beleive the writer of this vanished article over and above our professional servicemen, Id be willing to think that maybe the reporter was down the pub and some larikens were having a laugh with him or at him ? Plenty of Journalists have been hoaxed before, or whats to say the person who wrote the article isnt a Australia hater trying to tarnish our good image and fair reputation ?

Maybe you should approach the newspaper instead of trying in vain to tie up a member of parliments valuable time ?

 

[2020hindsight]

G/day everyone, names Dave & a newie here & have been enjoying reading, I have been particularly interested in your Anzac thread as my poem was read by Lt.Col. Paul Murphy (Ret.) at Villers-Bretonneux school & 2 of my books 1st vol & 2nd vol. were presented to the school for their library. I will paste the poem for you all to read.

Villers-Bretonneux

.... Helping to slow the advancing war, “history changing course”

good stuff David
say, is it true that the diggers used to refer to Villers-Bretonneux as "VB" ?
(by which I mean the ease of memory association with the beer)

 

[davedelaney]

G/day Prospector, sorry, but I am not a historian but have always loved history & especially Aussie war history, I am currently working on our rats of Tobuk & love the accolades our guys in any of our forces recieve, when the germans, under the leadership of Erwin Rommell, tried to take Tobruk failed when confronted by the Aussies, (their were some other nations there but in very small numbers), It's been said Hitler asked why the might of the german army was stopped by a division of colonials, to which Rommell was reported to reply "Sir they are not a division of colonials, they are a division of Australians, give me 2 divisions of Australians & I will conquer the world for you".

Prospector I am a former Furniture removalist of 25 years & successfully opertated my own removal company for 17 of these, I am currently branch manager for a radiator distribution company, I have self published 2 poetry books of Aussie bush, war, heartfelt writings, I have never had any formal education in writing (shows in some of my spelling) I made grade 8 when I was 15yrs old & left after 3 months & entered the workforce & have literaly worked my butt off to get to where I am now.

2020hindsight, I think somewhere along throughout the years someone commented on the initials VB & I think it stuck, the emblem for Villers-Bretonneux is VB in the shape of a kangaroo & yes the people there love Aussies.

Dave.

 

[Aussiejeff]

G/day Prospector, sorry, but I am not a historian but have always loved history & especially Aussie war history, I am currently working on our rats of Tobuk & love the accolades our guys in any of our forces recieve, when the germans, under the leadership of Erwin Rommell, tried to take Tobruk failed when confronted by the Aussies, (their were some other nations there but in very small numbers), It's been said Hitler asked why the might of the german army was stopped by a division of colonials, to which Rommell was reported to reply "Sir they are not a division of colonials, they are a division of Australians, give me 2 divisions of Australians & I will conquer the world for you". Dave.

Hi Dave.

I just finished reading the biography of Lt General Sir Leslie Morshead (titled "Morshead") written by Military Historian J.H. Moore in 1976. I happened to note that in fact, if it weren't for the brilliant performance of supporting British Field Artillery and heavy machinegun units, along with British tanks (less effective) then Tobruk would likely have been lost within a short timeframe, regardless of the Australian 9th Infantry Div's heroic defence.

For your info, the following units (various sources) I have noted as beginning the frontline defence of Tobruk on 10th April 1941:

9th Infantry Division (Aust)
1 Anti-Tank Regiment (Aust)
3 Anti-Tank Companys (Aust)
1st Royal Horse Artillery Regiment (Brit)
104th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment (Brit)
107th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment (Brit)
51st Field Regiment (Brit)
Royal Northumberland Fusiliers Medium Machinegun Regiment (Brit)
First Kings Dragoon Guards Reconnaissance Regiment (Brit)
Anti-Aircraft Regiments (Brit)
One Anti-Tank Regiment (Brit)
18th Cavalry Regiment (Indian)
About 30 Brit tanks (held in reserve).

According to Wikipedia, this initial force was later reinforced and replaced from September 1941 onwards by the British 70th Infantry Division, Polish Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade, a Czechoslovak battalion and a British tank brigade. The siege continued until Dec 1941.

So, the contribution by the British field artillery and anti-tank gun units in particular was crucial in holding Tobruk and cannot be underestimated. Morshead was quoted as saying as much in his biography. Unfortunately, the same could not be said of the British Commanders who Morshead found almost to a man to be verging on the incompetent! It was indeed fortunate that a colonial Commander of Morshead's stature was left the task of the initial 6 months of siege defence....

Cheers,


AJ

 

[robert toms]

Davedelaney...I spoke to a few Norwegians a few years ago and they knew all about Tobruk and were very impressed by the Australian soldiers...letting the tanks go over the top of their postions etc.
They had a belief that all Australian boys were brought up to be crackshots with a rifle...I was sorry to disappoint them by attesting to my own inaccuracy!
Anyway the Tobruk legend has travelled far and wide.

 

[Sean K]

Maybe you could explain why it is only this year that there has been any focus at all on Villers Bretonneux, given that on the 25th April 90 years ago, the Australians gained a major foothold against the German onslaught. I didn't even know about the actual date until this year, nor I think, did most Australians. Yet my grandfather served there.

P, I can ´t see how you can be serious about commenting on these issues when you didn ´t even know the dates of this most important conflict, and your grandfather was there?

As far as focusing on VB this year, I anticipate many other significant Australian battle sites will be commemorated into the future. Kokoda already has been, and I wouldn ´t be surprised if Long Tan became another focal point.

ANZAC Day hasn ´t been just about Gallipoli for some time.

By commemorating and remembering the sacrifce and folly in some way, lets hope we learn from our ways and don ´t go through it again.

However, I doubt that. We are human.

Damn, just look around the world now. Kaos.