Anzac Day

[2020hindsight]

... I am currently working on our rats of Tobuk & love the accolades our guys in any of our forces recieve, when the germans, under the leadership of Erwin Rommell, tried to take Tobruk failed when confronted by the Aussies, (their were some other nations there but in very small numbers), It's been said Hitler asked why the might of the german army was stopped by a division of colonials, to which Rommell was reported to reply "Sir they are not a division of colonials, they are a division of Australians, give me 2 divisions of Australians & I will conquer the world for you".

Dave
any evidence for this quote? - it would be great I concede - just that I 've also read that the Canadians claim a similar quote ... something about ..
"Give me 2 divisions of Canadians with American resupply, & I will conquer the world for you" (also unproven).

appreciate any links to any joy you have had in crediting the aussies with this one.

 

[2020hindsight]

1. Maybe you could explain why it is only this year that there has been any focus at all on Villers Bretonneux, given that on the 25th April 90 years ago, the Australians gained a major foothold against the German onslaught. I didn't even know about the actual date until this year, nor I think, did most Australians. Yet my grandfather served there.

2. All we would hear about in the media for Anzac Day was the Gallipoli story, which was a monumental military failure. So, I guess, why has the VB story been completely ignored until now?

I pretty much agree Prospector - the fact that it coincided with Anzac Day was news to me until this year as well.

Has the VB story been ignored till now? Compared to Gallipoli I guess you are right - Certainly it sounds like VB will get more publicity in future. And Aussies working in UK for instance have a better chance of getting to France than to Gallipoli for a weekend .

3. P, I can’t see how you can be serious about commenting on these issues when you didn’t even know the dates of this most important conflict, and your grandfather was there?

4. As far as focusing on VB this year, I anticipate many other significant Australian battle sites will be commemorated into the future. Kokoda already has been, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Long Tan became another focal point.

kennas,
3. tough call (imo) - not as if you gave her the answer to her question , other than .....

4. it's becoming fashionable I guess.

PS They recently round some aussies in a grave during roadworks near Ypes and went to great trouble to DNA identify two of them and bring them home. Grasping at history.
Anzac Day 2008, France
PS things like student tours of European Anzac battlefields also becoming fashionable... My daughter almost went but the tour fell through..

 

[Pronto]

I don't know whether Rommel did or didn't say this, but these sorts of statements are made by almost all countries about their own servicemen's prowess in wartime.

An acquaintance (in the British Army) attended the Italian Army Staff College and told me that his Italian classmates would talk about the courage and daring of Italian soldiers in the Western Desert and elsewhere in WWII.

The Allies during the war often had a much different view.

 

[Prospector]

P, I can ´t see how you can be serious about commenting on these issues when you didn ´t even know the dates of this most important conflict, and your grandfather was there?

Just proves my point, he never talked about it when he got home. Just wanted to forget it all. So my grandmother and mother never forced him to. And it isnt like we are taught much at school - we only ever heard about how wonderful the British were. And certainly, apart from this year, that is all the media fed us too. And really it is only in the last 10 years or so we became the Information Age being able to access this information through the media.

So from the perspective of someone who has never met their grandfather because of the war, I would have thought I have more 'right' to comment than many others who are posting. So are you saying that because I didnt know details or dates (because that is how he wanted it) that I have somehow don't deserve a voice? Or are you suggesting I made it all up

We have applied for his war record, when it arrives (it is taking forever) I will post it for you. I do have my father's war record though, but from Korea, and that never rates a mention in the media.

Maybe you just dont know what it was like for those who were serving and how they felt when they returned home. Even though you have served yourself. But did you actually go to war or just did the training. For them it was over, never to be repeated; which was why he was so distressed when WWII started. It was like we hadn't learnt a thing.


It is only in the last few years that people gave the diggers, WWII, Korea and Vietnam vets any respect at all.

Thanks 20/20, although maybe kennas thinks you dont deserve a voice either?

 

[2020hindsight]

Tell you what Prospector ...

the way young drunken Aussies carry on lol (gday - my name's Bazza McKenzie - yep - I'm an Aussie - true blue - bet you Pierres really loved our Anzacs eh?)

... I wonder if we blow our welcome, and they find some excuse to "desist" with annual VB celebrations at some future date

PS or introduce non-alcoholic beer lol.

 

[2020hindsight]

rommel quotes etc

but you're right in that there are some great Rommel quotes

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/history/42931-erwin-rommel.html

1. "In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine."

2. "Courage which goes against military expediency is stupidity, or, if it is insisted upon by a commander, irresponsibility."

3. "So long as one isn't carrying one's head under one's arm, things aren't too bad."

4. "A risk is a chance you take; if it fails you can recover. A gamble is a chance taken; if it fails, recovery is impossible."

5. "Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders."

6. "One must not judge everyone in the world by his qualities as a soldier: otherwise we should have no civilization."

7. "Messages can't be intercepted if they aren't sent, can they?"

8. "This business with the Jews has got to stop."

9. "What was really amazing was the speed with which the Americans adapted themselves to modern warfare. Starting from scratch an army has been crafted in the very minimum of time, which, in equipment, armament and organization of all arms, surpasses anything the world has yet seen."

Quotations about Rommel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel#Quotations_of_Erwin_Rommel

10. The British Parliament considered a censure vote against Winston Churchill following the surrender of Tobruk. The vote failed, but in the course of the debate, Churchill stated:
"We have a very daring and skilful opponent against us, and, may I say across the havoc of war, a great general."

11. Churchill again, on hearing of Rommel's death:
"He also deserves our respect, because, although a loyal German soldier, he came to hate Hitler and all his works, and took part in the conspiracy to rescue Germany by displacing the maniac and tyrant. For this, he paid the forfeit of his life. In the sombre wars of modern democracy, there is little place for chivalry."

As for quote #7, the only reason we beat him (esp Monty etc) was the fact that Enigma code had been broken - and the more Hitler insisted in being involved in decision making - the more the Allies (also) knew . As for his resupply, a Spotter Plane would fly past on the horizon and pretend to spot them - to hide the fact that we knew from intercepted codes that resupply was on its way - and we'd take the ships out. Rommel knew what was going on - but Hitler and co refused to believe it .

As Wellington said - (albeit about Waterloo rather than WWII) - "the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life"

 

[Sean K]

So from the perspective of someone who has never met their grandfather because of the war, I would have thought I have more 'right' to comment than many others who are posting. So are you saying that because I didnt know details or dates (because that is how he wanted it) that I have somehow don't deserve a voice? Or are you suggesting I made it all up

Yes, you are right, apologies. I didn ´t consider that comment too well. Must be this Amazonian humidity. I just can ´t understand why we shouldn ´t be drawing attention to the serviceman who have ´done their duty ´ and recognising their service whether it was right or wrong in a politcal sence. As far as ex diggers not wanting to talk about their service and not participate in ANZAC Days, they obviously need some counselling, and if we just look at them and say óh well, that was the war ´and don ´t do anything about it, they ´ll live (and did live) a life in depression. Any more focus put on ANZAC Day and what it really means can only be a good thing IMO. And yes, I did three tours of ´war like ´ service, only one where it was really dodgy, but a far cry from the Western Front. But that all needs to be put in perspective too. Some may say no one ´s war experience should be compared for how hard and distressing it was. Treading on murky ground there.

 

[davedelaney]

Hi all,
Thank you aussiejeff for your comments, much appreiciated, Jeff I try to read any infomation I can lay my hands on then condense into (hopefuly) a great poem, I concentrate on Aussies because I write for Aussies & what they like to hear, I have put together some info & a link if you are interested in reading more, I know the Brits, were there as were Indians & Lybian labourers, but it was the Aussies who did the area patrols, nighttime raids, hand to hand & bayonet attacks.

Dave.
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Tobruk was an Italian port fortress captured in January 1941. It became an important port and supply base. When the German Afrika Korps under General Erwin Rommel began its advance against British and Australian forces in March 1941, many British and Australian troops retreated within the fortress - thus began the famous siege of Tobruk.
About half the forces contained inside Tobruk were Australian. Most were members of the 9th Division AIF, with three infantry brigades (20th, 24th and 26th Brigades). There was also one infantry brigade from the 7th Division AIF, the 18th Brigade, along with many 7th Division motor transport troops. Others included artillery, medical, engineer and supply troops. The fortress was ringed by trenches, tank traps and minefields.

Brigades in the 2d Australian Imperial Forces (AIF) contained three battalions, each recruited chiefly on a regional basis. For the sake of tradition, battalions took the numbers of their counterparts in the World War I 1st AIF, with the prefix 2- preceding the new unit designations. In addition to its headquarters and support companies, the battalion consisted of four rifle companies, each composed of three 30-man platoons. The strength of an Australian infantry battalion varied, but in the Middle East it contained 32 officers and 750 to 770 men. The total strength for an infantry division was about 14,000, to include its headquarters, three brigades, an antitank regiment, field artillery regiment, engineers, and signal.
By 10 April 1941, the garrison at Tobruk consisted of the 9th Australian Division with its three brigades of infantry-the 20th, 24th, and 26th-together with the 18th Brigade of the 7th Australian Division and several thousand British and Indian troops. Altogether, 14,270 Australian troops; 9,000 British troops; about 5,700 troops of mixed Australian, British, and Indian origin; and 3,000 Libyan laborers defended Tobruk.

On 14 April 1941 the troops at Tobruk were placed under the command of the Australian Major-General Leslie Morshead, commander of the 9th Division. He was dubbed by the German propaganda broadcaster, Lord Haw Haw, 'Ali Baba Morshead and his 40,000 thieves'. Lord Haw Haw also gave those at Tobruk their most famous nickname, the 'Rats of Tobruk', by broadcasting that they were caught like 'rats in a trap'

As well as infantry, many supporting troops also were 'Rats of Tobruk'. Supply depots and medical posts were established at various points within the perimeter, often utilising caves and underground bunkers that could not be bombed. German and Italian bombers flew many missions over the fortress meaning the siege was dangerous for all involved.

The British attempted to relieve the garrison at Tobruk but it took over seven months for a breakthrough to be made with British forces linking up with the Tobruk garrison in early December. By this time, most of the Australian forces had been relieved and transported to Egypt on warships. Only one Australian battalion, the 2/13th Infantry Battalion, was still at Tobruk when the British lifted the siege.

The Australians had suffered about 3000 troops killed and wounded during the siege, with another 941 taken prisoner. Some of those captured were taken when German forces made small advances, while others were captured while on patrol 'outside the wire'. These fighting patrols were especially dangerous, as troops often were ordered to attack enemy troop concentrations, which required them to advance stealthily, attack and then withdraw across fireswept ground.

After the Australians were evacuated, Tobruk was again besieged when German forces counter-attacked in January 1942. The British and South African garrison was forced to surrender.


http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/miller/miller.asp

 

[Sean K]

Great to see that ANZAC Day is being extended to cover the other areas where Australians served to defend this country and it's interests.

Plans for annual Villers-Bretonneux Anzac Day service
May 23, 2008

THE federal Government will discuss with French authorities the staging of annual Anzac Day services in Villers-Bretonneux.

A special 90th anniversary dawn service was held in the French town last month.

The Battle of Villers-Bretonneux was fought in April 1918 when Australian forces ejected German defenders from the village but at a cost of 1200 dead.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says an annual dawn service on Anzac Day will be a recognition that 300,000 Australians served on the western front in France during World War I, with some 50,000 losing their lives.

"Alan Griffin, the Minister for Veterans' Affairs, has been in my ear about this for some time," Mr Rudd told the Nine Network.

"His recommendation to me is that we proceed and that is that.

"There will be an annual dawn service at Villers-Bretonneux from next year on."

The principal Australian War Memorial in France is located at the town, along with the graves of 770 Australian soldiers.

Mr Rudd says Gallipoli, from where Anzac Day originated, is important for familiar reasons.

"This (Villers-Bretonneux) provides an additional opportunity for Australians to honour our war dead," he said.

"(Mr) Griffin will be organising this in consultation with the town administration of Villers-Bretonneux to make sure that it all works for them as well. It is their town."

 

[Sean K]

There was some heated discussion in this thread some time ago (probably around ANZAC Day) when some people thought we shouldn't be 'celebrating' ANZAC Day, or glorifying it in any way.

I agree we shouldn't be glorifing it, or celebrating, but it's a day to recognise what serving members have contributed to their country, whether they wanted to, or not.

Today, I see that the members of Delta Company 6 RAR will finally be recognised for the battle of Long Tan and their tremendous courage and galantry in holding off a significantly much larger force of NVA, with the assistance of some NZ arty.


Long Tan men to finally get gallantry medals
Tony Wright
August 14, 2008

FORTY-TWO years after their unit fought through a long and bloody night in a rubber plantation at Long Tan in Vietnam, the veterans of Delta Company, 6RAR, will finally be allowed to wear a citation for gallantry awarded by the former government of the Republic of Vietnam.

Their old commander, Harry Smith, will receive Australia's Star of Gallantry, second only to the Victoria Cross, denied him after the battle of Long Tan in 1966 through military deceit and political secrecy.

..

Now, when the men of D Company attend Long Tan Day services around Australia on Monday, each will be able to wear the emblem of the citation.

 

[2020hindsight]

.... with the assistance of some NZ arty.

kennas
I'm sure you've heard this one , ..
The Corps motto for both the Engineers and the Artillery is "ubique" (YOO be kway)

In the case of the Engineers it means "Everywhere"
In the case of the Artillery it means "All over the place"

PS about time for that recognition, 42 years ! sheesh

Apparently 2 days before Long Tan, they downgraded the Vietnam war to "less dangerous than Korea" - halved the "recognition factor" - out of the hands of the average bureaucrats - and only the Govt could intervene to set it right (as I understand it).

 

[glenn_r]

The book "Vietnam - The Australian War" by Paul Ham, is a great read for those that want to know the facts around our involvement in that war.

The politicians as usual are shown up to be yellow backed bastards in a lot of back room deals and strangely the South Vietnam Government never officially asked for our help but we sent our troops anyway.

As a "Drop Short" for 20 odd years the Royal Australian Artillery motto is as follows, " UBIQUE QUOFAS ET GLORIA DU****" which loosely translated means "Everywhere Where Right and Glory Lead"

Finally its great to see the guys from Delta Company are finally receiving their citations.

Ubique

Glenn

 

[2020hindsight]

.. Apparently 2 days before Long Tan, they downgraded the Vietnam war to "less dangerous than Korea" - halved the "recognition factor" - out of the hands of the average bureaucrats - and only the Govt could intervene to set it right (as I understand it).

Interview with retired Lieutenant Colonel Harry Smith on this morning's AM.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2334834.htm

SAMANTHA DONOVAN: Next Monday retired Lieutenant Colonel Harry Smith and some of his men will get together in Queensland to mark the 42nd anniversary of the Battle of Long Tan

SAMANTHA DONOVAN: The Federal Government has finally agreed to award Harry Smith the Star of Gallantry, which he says he'll accept on behalf of all his men, particularly the 18 who were killed at Long Tan.

His platoon commanders Dave Sabben and Geoff Kendall will be offered the Medal for Gallantry, recognising they never received the awards Harry Smith recommended them for.

And the entire D Company 6th Battalion of the Royal Australian Regiment is finally being given permission to wear the Gallantry Crosses with the citation emblem awarded to them in 1966 by the then Republic of Vietnam.

Veteran Affairs Minister Alan Griffin says today's announcement is long overdue.

ALAN GRIFFIN: This has been a battle for recognition, due recognition to everyone who was part of the Battle of Long Tan. The fact is, it shouldn't have taken this long.

SAMANTHA DONOVAN: Harry Smith blames the military system of the day for his men not getting the awards he recommended them for.

HARRY SMITH: The scale for awards for Vietnam was reduced by half, two days before the Battle of Long Tan, on the basis that our generals thought that Vietnam was not as serious a conflict as Korea.

I don't particularly blame any particular senior officer but it was the system.

SAMANTHA DONOVAN: Harry Smith has campaigned for the original recommendations to be honoured since secrecy restrictions were lifted on several documents 12 years ago.

He says the biggest problem was that the awarding of medals couldn't be reviewed by an ombudsman or court.

HARRY SMITH: You know it's very difficult to argue with pure bloody-mindedness, if I could say that, amongst advisors who don't know what war is all about.

And they refused to accept the word of people like myself and my officers that were involved in the war. And now that the ALP has introduced a new tribunal I would suggest a whole new system will be there for other veterans who might have similar problems.

SAMANTHA DONOVAN: And Harry Smith's battle to have the veterans of Long Tan properly recognised isn't quite over yet.

He's ready to give evidence to the Federal Government's newly established Defence Honours and Awards Tribunal when it considers the cases of another two officers and nine soldiers who were recommended for awards they never received.

 

[Sean K]

As a "Drop Short" for 20 odd years the Royal Australian Artillery motto is as follows, " UBIQUE QUOFAS ET GLORIA DU****" which loosely translated means "Everywhere Where Right and Glory Lead"

Glenn,

I just went off memory that it was NZ sausage men in the line supporting 6 RAR. Is that the case?

Sorry, if it was Aussie's sending rounds down.

kennas

 

[2020hindsight]

As a "Drop Short" for 20 odd years the Royal Australian Artillery motto is as follows, " UBIQUE QUOFAS ET GLORIA DU****" which loosely translated means "Everywhere Where Right and Glory Lead"

thanks glenn
btw, let's settle for UBIQUE QUOFAS ET GLORIA DUCANT shall we
- lol -
That's the thing about these unthinking computers
.... swear-checker is looking over your shoulder all the time,
irrespective of whether you are speaking the noblest Latin, or the crudest English

 

[glenn_r]

Kennas,

Off the top of my head there was a Kiwi forward observer party attached to D Company at Long Tan but the rounds came from Aussie guns in Nui Dat.

http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/vietnam/longtan.html

 

[Sean K]

Kennas,

Off the top of my head there was a Kiwi forward observer party attached to D Company at Long Tan but the rounds came from Aussie guns in Nui Dat.

http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/vietnam/longtan.html

Cheers, well whatever the case, I think Australians sometimes forget that there's an NZ part to the ANZAC bit, and after been to Galipolli and understand the NZ contribution, and served with Kiwis on operations, I can't help but get a lump in my throat whenever I discuss Australian and NZ forces operating together. Like they are now in most places.

Shame they can't play cricket.

But, pound for pound, probably the best sportng and fighting force in the world. Glad they're on our team.

 

[Sean K]

Crikey, ANZAC Day has come around again, so fast.

For those who think we're 'celebrating' war take a step back. Please.

War is not what ANYONE wants.

But, lets accept that we need to defend our country, our friends, and our interests.

And, some people put up their hands. Or, are required to.

Many have sacrificed and died in all sorts of conflicts throughout our development.

Lest we forget.

 

[gav]

Well said Kennas.

Lest We Forget.

 

[shag]

from my experience very few remember the dead, so its good this day has had a resurgence, but u do wonder if for many its about remembering the ones who gave their lives when often so young and what war is or was really like.
no film can realistically show the rats, maggots, flies, stench, famine, extremes in temperature or shear terror of seeing yr mates get slaughtered and not knowing if its going to be you next.