The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

Denham in W.A to go complete solar/hydrogen. Jeez it only seems like yesterday, we were replacing the Blackstone diesels with Cummings.
It has been a bit of a test bed for renewables over the years, wind diesel being the current format.
I think the headline is BS, as usual, but it is a step in the right direction.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...st-wa-town-to-be-powered-by-hydrogen/11870472

 

[qldfrog]

interesting, I like the comment by the "expert " who reflects my own doubt about hydrogen, but as a buffer overnight or so,as explained here, it is perfect, you do not have to compress much and do not store for long so leaks are reasonable.
Interesting to follow, imagine if we could get hydrogen fuel cells as batteries in a closed circuit for residential use:
100l of purified water, a bit of cooling, add panels and Bob is your uncle

 

[sptrawler]

interesting, I like the comment by the "expert " who reflects my own doubt about hydrogen, but as a buffer overnight or so,as explained here, it is perfect, you do not have to compress much and do not store for long so leaks are reasonable.
Interesting to follow, imagine if we could get hydrogen fuel cells as batteries in a closed circuit for residential use:
100l of purified water, a bit of cooling, add panels and Bob is your uncle

At least it is good for modelling, they will learn a lot from it, as it is an isolated small grid.
In the early 1980's M.A.N and W.A's Electricity Company, built a parabolic mirror steam generator, in Meekatharra, in the end the result was it used 500Kw more than it produced.
But it did give a huge amount of usefull information, for remote controlled mechanical solar tracking electronics.
After a couple of years it was sold for scrap.

 

[IFocus]

At least it is good for modelling, they will learn a lot from it, as it is an isolated small grid.
In the early 1980's M.A.N and W.A's Electricity Company, built a parabolic mirror steam generator, in Meekatharra, in the end the result was it used 500Kw more than it produced.
But it did give a huge amount of usefull information, for remote controlled mechanical solar tracking electronics.
After a couple of years it was sold for scrap.

Remember looking at that when they were setting it up and being surprised how small the turbine was also remember the German bloke working on it looking worried

 

[sptrawler]

Remember looking at that when they were setting it up and being surprised how small the turbine was also remember the German bloke working on it looking worried

It worked but the oil circulating pumps, steam condensing system and mirror solar tracking motors i.e parasitic load, used more than was generated.
But a lot of great data was collected with the solar tracking equipment.
Now all through that Gascoyne, mid west area, it is skid mount gas turbines, because the gas pipe was run from Karatha through Newman, Meeka. Mt Magnet, Kal, to Esperance.
Makes life so much easier.

 

[Smurf1976]

But it did give a huge amount of usefull information, for remote controlled mechanical solar tracking electronics.

Yep - sometimes it's worth taking the hit just to gain the knowledge for future uses be that technical or financial aspects of it.

As for Denham, well incidentally if there's an award for the most miserable shower anywhere then the place we stayed at would win it. Not complaining but suffice to say it was extremely economical in water use..... I guess water's a tad scarce there? All good otherwise though.

No complaints though, went to the place not far away with the dolphins in the morning and all good yes.

 

[Smurf1976]

It worked but the oil circulating pumps, steam condensing system and mirror solar tracking motors i.e parasitic load, used more than was generated.
But a lot of great data was collected with the solar tracking equipment.
Now all through that Gascoyne, mid west area, it is skid mount gas turbines, because the gas pipe was run from Karatha through Newman, Meeka. Mt Magnet, Kal, to Esperance.
Makes life so much easier.

A look on Google Earth finds that there's a small solar farm at Meekatharra too.

Comparing that with an obviously older street view image, looks like they had diesels previously and have put new diesels or gas turbines (assuming that's what the white objects are, bit hard to tell from the image) next to where they were, removed the old stuff and put solar there and out the back of it.

 

[sptrawler]

A look on Google Earth finds that there's a small solar farm at Meekatharra too.

Comparing that with an obviously older street view image, looks like they had diesels previously and have put new diesels or gas turbines (assuming that's what the white objects are, bit hard to tell from the image) next to where they were, removed the old stuff and put solar there and out the back of it.

The old diesel station used to be on main street, right next to the swimming pool.
Just went to google maps, street view savage st, there is still one exhaust stack standing.
I have photo's of us putting them up in 1986, lol, time moves on there were six of them. I'll rumage through the boxes and post up a pic. lol
I wouldn't have a clue where the Power Station is now, it isn't high on my list of must visit again places, the few months I spent there were enough to slate my appetite for the place.
These days if I travel through, I only stop to pick up fuel, while heading North for winter.
looking on Google Earth, it looks like they have moved it out past the high school, on the Landor road, which goes to Mt Augustus for those who want to find big rocks.
My guess 10 skid mount GT's and 2 diesel back ups. Not a lot of solar, PR value only.

 

[Smurf1976]

The old diesel station used to be on main street, right next to the swimming pool.

Found it on Google.

I've been straight past for the record but don't recall even contemplating that there was a power station there. LOL.

Something I did spot in WA though is that they seemed to be running small (remote area) power stations from a CNG tank and that it's being done by means of swapping the tank over not transferring the fuel to a permanent tank. So basically running the power station from a great big gas bottle roughly the size of a shipping container and when it's empty just connect up the prime mover (truck) and drive it to wherever to fill it then bring it back. A different approach to delivering gas to the site and storing it in permanent tanks.

I didn't spot anyone to ask but that seemed to be what was going on so far as I could tell. Haven't seen that done anywhere else. Looked to be internal combustion plant using it.

 

[sptrawler]

There appears to be the start of a major bottleneck, with the installation of large scale solar, The States are going to have to increase their spending on network infrastructure.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/victori...-new-projects-may-be-blocked-from-grid-82973/
From the article:
Solar and wind farm developers contacted by RenewEconomy say they have been told that AEMO has now bundled affected projects into three distinct groups.

The first are those that have already had their maximum output cut in half – the Wemen, Gannawarra, Bannerton and Karadoc solar farms in Victoria, and the Broken Hill solar farm in NSW. Some of these solar farms had been operating for a year or more without issue. This has taken 170MW of capacity from well established solar projects off the grid.

Another five projects – ready for commissioning – have been told that they had been placed in a queue which would not be advanced until the issues with the first group had been resolved. They would also only be allowed to connect one at a time. Delays to otherwise ready projects could last months, or even a year, developers fear.
Another group of projects under construction have also been warned of further delays. RenewEconomy understands the projects potentially affected include the Murray Warra and Bulgana wind projects, the Yatpool, Kiamal and Cohuna solar farms in Victoria, and other projects in NSW, including Limondale and Darlington Point solar projects.

On top of that, further constraints could be placed on other projects, including those on the line between Horsham and Ballarat, where a limit of 600MW will be applied. This could impact the Waubra, Crowlands, Ararat and the soon-to-be completed Bulgana wind farms.

AEMO’s latest letter warns that it could be years until the issues in the region are finally resolved. Apart from the potential short-term fix of changing the inverter settings, one medium term option is to install “synchronous condensers” in the region to maintain that system strength
“Generators may also identify the need for plant modification in order to meet performance standards on an ongoing basis. Thermal and stability limits mean it will not be possible for many of these projects to connect or generate at full output ahead of significant investment in network infrastructure.

 

[Smurf1976]

There appears to be the start of a major bottleneck, with the installation of large scale solar

At the risk of standing on the soapbox - it's a situation as warned of right here in this very thread on ASF.

If you're investing in this area then be extremely careful to ensure that whoever's involved has all the technical boxes ticked and knows what they're doing and don't assume that even the major players have got it right. Some perhaps, others definitely not.....

 

[Smurf1976]

Just about out of juice in NSW at the moment.

High temperatures, fires and so on.

All coal units are at maximum apart from one that's out of service, all gas is running flat out, hydro plant's fairly heavily loaded but not to the limit, there's a couple of diesel / kero fueled gas turbines running and AEMO has declared an intervention event (that's code for saying some big users have been asked to cut back etc). Market price has been all over the place up and down.

Meanwhile in Victoria and SA, well spot prices are negative. Literally can't give it away at the moment. Cool weather so nobody's running air-conditioning, the wind's going nicely and can't get anything into NSW where it would be extremely useful right now.

 

[sptrawler]

Just about out of juice in NSW at the moment.

High temperatures, fires and so on.

All coal units are at maximum apart from one that's out of service, all gas is running flat out, hydro plant's fairly heavily loaded but not to the limit, there's a couple of diesel / kero fueled gas turbines running and AEMO has declared an intervention event (that's code for saying some big users have been asked to cut back etc). Market price has been all over the place up and down.

Meanwhile in Victoria and SA, well spot prices are negative. Literally can't give it away at the moment. Cool weather so nobody's running air-conditioning, the wind's going nicely and can't get anything into NSW where it would be extremely useful right now.

Those inter State grid H.V interconnectors could be very usefull ATM, how long is the expected time to commissioned on the new one between NSW and S.A?

 

[Smurf1976]

how long is the expected time to commissioned on the new one between NSW and S.A?

2022.

Bearing in mind the following generating plant closures in the two states in the next few years:

2020 - Torrens Island A units 2 & 4 (SA, gas, total 240 MW)
2021 - Torrens Island A unit 1 (SA, gas, 120 MW)
2022 - Torrens Island A unit 3 (SA, gas, 120 MW) and Liddell unit 4 (NSW, coal, 420 MW)
2023 - Osborne (SA, gas, 180 MW) and Liddell units 1,2 & 3 (NSW, coal, total 1260 MW).

Osborne is owned by Origin, the rest by AGL.

Osborne is also occasionally referred to as "Osborne C" due to the historic presence of the unrelated Osborne A (1923 - 1968) and Osborne B (1947 - 1990) stations both of which are now completely demolished and were never in any way technically related to the current plant apart from the location a short distance north of the present station.

 

[sptrawler]

That will mean a tight couple of summers to come. Hopefully there is more renewables coming online in SA in the next couple of years, then when the interconnect is online, NSW might get some benefit.

 

[Smurf1976]

It may prove to be a bit of a god send, that the S.A molten salt storage generator didn't get off the ground, a lot of the hype revolved around the 'Crescent Dune' plant in the U.S. which was touted as the way of the future.

The flip side is that the situation at Port Augusta is yet another one of a failed promise.

"Stop coal and do x instead" is the argument. Employment won't be a problem because "x" will employ more than coal did anyway.

All sounds good until the coal or other polluting etc industry shuts, "x" fails to happen and the workers and indeed entire community bear the cost.

On one hand I do "get it" that there's a problem with coal and likewise there's a case for conserving natural things and so on.

On the other hand if all past promises of alternatives were actually delivered then there'd be an economic boom from doing so. Until such time as they are actually delivered, it's not hard to see why people in mining towns and so on aren't buying it and why the various academics etc who hype such ideas have lost credibility with the workers.

 

[SirRumpole]

Not so sunny in the solar industry.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...ened-by-nem-rules-killing-investment/11903706

 

[sptrawler]

Not so sunny in the solar industry.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...ened-by-nem-rules-killing-investment/11903706

This paragraph sums it up.
Network constraints: The GSD data looks at generation constraints from a number of different angles, and none of them are particularly flattering for the likes of Coleambally. There are a number of factors constraining generation, but put simply the network is like a freeway with a speed limit of 100kmh, but traffic runs much slower in peak hour. Solar generators, without storage, generally have to merge into peak-hour conditions, limiting their capacity to contribute.

Untill there is somewhere to store the excess generation, it has to restricted.
When Snowy 2.0 is built and the interconnector between NSW and S.A is completed, the excess power in S.A from renewables, will be able to be sent to NSW, to either pump up Snowy 2.0 or be used to feed NSW load.
Also power will be able to flow from NSW to S.A when the renewables aren't generating.
Well that is my reasoning, I'm sure smurf will give a more accurate description, he has been mentioning the problem for ages.

 

[Value Collector]

This paragraph sums it up.
Network constraints: The GSD data looks at generation constraints from a number of different angles, and none of them are particularly flattering for the likes of Coleambally. There are a number of factors constraining generation, but put simply the network is like a freeway with a speed limit of 100kmh, but traffic runs much slower in peak hour. Solar generators, without storage, generally have to merge into peak-hour conditions, limiting their capacity to contribute.

Untill there is somewhere to store the excess generation, it has to restricted.
When Snowy 2.0 is built and the interconnector between NSW and S.A is completed, the excess power in S.A from renewables, will be able to be sent to NSW, to either pump up Snowy 2.0 or be used to feed NSW load.
Also power will be able to flow from NSW to S.A when the renewables aren't generating.
Well that is my reasoning, I'm sure smurf will give a more accurate description, he has been mentioning the problem for ages.

I just see a few growing pains, but the good thing is its growing.

 

[sptrawler]

I just see a few growing pains, but the good thing is its growing.

It certainly is and it is growing in a sensible manner, which is the good thing.
The horse is leading the cart, rather than the normal way, where we are chasing the cart down the road with the horse in tow.
Building the renewables, the H.V network and the storage, then phasing out the coal in an orderly manner is a much better plan IMO.
Than blowing up the coal, then wondering how you are going to supply the electricity, with an unsuitable H.V network and very little storage.
Time will tell, but I think there will be a very orderly ramp up of renewables.