The future of energy generation and storage

sptrawler · 15 February 2024

Thanks smurf, I've been involved in both island system black starts and grid system black starts.
I would think from a fully renewable grid system, where most if not all systems have to connect to a grid system, the ability to re synchronise is paramount.
How they achieve that will be interesting.
When we black started W.A, we decided which was was the best unit to get back in service, with the least amount of issues, then power system worked out the best lumps of load to put on it and then build up from there.
When you have a bunch of batteries and then load up the reacharge with solar and wind generation, it will certainly be interesting mid winter.

It certainly is interesting times, I can't understand why the Govt doesnt build its own battery manufacturing plant, I think they are going to need ship loads . Lol

qldfrog · 15 February 2024

I actually though that once storage was solved, we could do with renewable only and just got a wake up call
When I read a recent report of the Victorian government

So you starve or you get power..
Ahhh well, I am sure this is coming from the oil lobby or far right racist white male patriarchs...
Up to 70%...
But that is assuming we still have industry and growth..with cave living and led leds around a fire pit, we might need less than 70% of agricultural land
Reality is a bitch, even worse if you add numbers and real sciences

SirRumpole · 15 February 2024

qldfrog said:
I actually though that once storage was solved, we could do with renewable only and just got a wake up call
When I read a recent report of the Victorian government
View attachment 170908
So you starve or you get power..
Ahhh well, I am sure this is coming from the oil lobby or far right racist white male patriarchs...
Up to 70%...
But that is assuming we still have industry and growth..with cave living and led leds around a fire pit, we might need less than 70% of agricultural land
Reality is a bitch, even worse if you add numbers and real sciences

Agriculture can co-exist with wind farms, solar not so sure.

qldfrog · 15 February 2024

SirRumpole said:
Agriculture can co-exist with wind farms, solar not so sure.

Solar no, wind..can usually with cattle or livestock but is a big it, road, gates, weed spreading, access...not that it matters cause the wef aim is to stop meat eating for the commoners...
One funny thing, after keeping this silent so far,EU starts considering co2 impacts of pet dogs and cats..which is disastrous.
Absolutely true, a dog in the west has probably more impact than 2 indians

Smurf1976 · 15 February 2024

Smurf1976 said:
Tesla I'd have to find out.

Should've said I'll need to confirm that to be sure and my previous comment was based on my understanding only.

Have done so and my comment is correct yes, it won't black start an external inverter if it's fully discharged.

Generally speaking, it's only the DC coupled systems, those with a single inverter that has both the solar panels and the battery connected to it, that are able to do that and even there "read the fine print" and know exactly what it can and can't do.

For AC coupled systems, those which are simply added to an existing inverter and solar, you'll need to ensure it's not fully discharged during a loss of supply in order to avoid that situation. But since the solar's working, that's doable if you keep a watch on it and manage consumption accordingly.

There are also some AC coupled systems that are a step below that. They'll power the house from the battery but don't fool the inverter into thinking the grid's there. That being so, there's no production from the solar - once the battery's flat you lose power. That's the lowest tier option basically.

For any such system I strongly recommend reading the fine print and getting in writing from the supplier exactly what it can and can't do.

macca · 15 February 2024

Smurf1976 said:
Should've said I'll need to confirm that to be sure and my previous comment was based on my understanding only.

Have done so and my comment is correct yes, it won't black start an external inverter if it's fully discharged.

Generally speaking, it's only the DC coupled systems, those with a single inverter that has both the solar panels and the battery connected to it, that are able to do that and even there "read the fine print" and know exactly what it can and can't do.

For AC coupled systems, those which are simply added to an existing inverter and solar, you'll need to ensure it's not fully discharged during a loss of supply in order to avoid that situation. But since the solar's working, that's doable if you keep a watch on it and manage consumption accordingly.

There are also some AC coupled systems that are a step below that. They'll power the house from the battery but don't fool the inverter into thinking the grid's there. That being so, there's no production from the solar - once the battery's flat you lose power. That's the lowest tier option basically.

For any such system I strongly recommend reading the fine print and getting in writing from the supplier exactly what it can and can't do.

I do have a Tesla battery so I could turn off the mains and see what happens with the inverters, I will wait for some sunshine so it will be obvious if they are working or not

Thanks for the details, much appreciated

qldfrog · 15 February 2024

SirRumpole said:
Agriculture can co-exist with wind farms, solar not so sure.

The real issue is a wake up call, for anyone not blind, as to the size of the challenge knowing that wind farms collapse and burn, have a limited life of course, and spend most of their life idle.as for solar farms, sqr km of them which can be destroyed by a strong hail storm or tornado and will be buried in 15 or 20y...
Not forgetting that in 2024,in Australia, a solar farm or wind farm with associated battery to allow 24/7 supply will burn more fossil fuel in its lifetime than the same power producing fossil fuel station.
These are hard 2024 facts so when will someone with half a brain , and number and technical literacy, plus balls wake up, do a speech and get the **** up out of that insanity?
Mr @sptrawler and @Smurf1976 , what about this inconvenient truth?
You are technically competent ,aware..
Is it better to play the ostrich than trying to wake up people..our sons and daughters, and their children will pay, as for our own super ... Rol

Smurf1976 · 15 February 2024

SirRumpole said:
Agriculture can co-exist with wind farms, solar not so sure.

FWIW several of the hydro stations in Tasmania have had sheep roaming around outside for a very long time.

So long as the switchyard is fenced to keep them away from what would be a highly dangerous environment for them to be in, and it'd be fenced anyway to keep humans out too, they do a pretty good job of wandering around everything else and keeping the grass down. They don't seem to get themselves in trouble and they're not big enough to damage anything even if they did do something silly.

Could probably do the same with solar, use it as grazing land.

SirRumpole · 15 February 2024

qldfrog said:
The real issue is a wake up call, for anyone not blind, as to the size of the challenge knowing that wind farms collapse and burn, have a limited life of course, and spend most of their life idle.as for solar farms, sqr km of them which can be destroyed by a strong hail storm or tornado and will be buried in 15 or 20y...
Not forgetting that in 2024,in Australia, a solar farm or wind farm with associated battery to allow 24/7 supply will burn more fossil fuel in its lifetime than the same power producing fossil fuel station.
These are hard 2024 facts so when will someone with half a brain , and number and technical literacy, plus balls wake up, do a speech and get the **** up out of that insanity?
Mr @sptrawler and @Smurf1976 , what about this inconvenient truth?
You are technically competent ,aware..
Is it better to play the ostrich than trying to wake up people..our sons and daughters, and their children will pay, as for our own super ... Rol

What should our future be then, nuclear?

qldfrog · 15 February 2024

Smurf1976 said:
FWIW several of the hydro stations in Tasmania have had sheep roaming around outside for a very long time.

So long as the switchyard is fenced to keep them away from what would be a highly dangerous environment for them to be in, and it'd be fenced anyway to keep humans out too, they do a pretty good job of wandering around everything else and keeping the grass down. They don't seem to get themselves in trouble and they're not big enough to damage anything even if they did do something silly.

Could probably do the same with solar, use it as grazing land.

Not solar, or at least not done in Australia....
Here, it is clear cut plus poison...
I do not say it could not be done in a way :spreading panels further and higher, but there is what could and what is.
And if panels are higher and leave sun thru, it is a much more expensive play in hardware, protection of cabling etc

Hydro stations is not what we are talking about and there is low amount of negative for these...not that the Franklin river scheme was a smooth project it seems here
We are talking wind farms either on ridges or flat plains , usually compatible with some grazing and solar farms as we have here in qld...hectares of Chinese panels covering ground chosen near the coast and on relatively flat land.
The most productive for agriculture

farmerge · 15 February 2024

SirRumpole said:
What should our future be then, nuclear?

@SirRumpole Possibly

farmerge · 15 February 2024

Smurf1976 said:
Should've said I'll need to confirm that to be sure and my previous comment was based on my understanding only.

Have done so and my comment is correct yes, it won't black start an external inverter if it's fully discharged.

Generally speaking, it's only the DC coupled systems, those with a single inverter that has both the solar panels and the battery connected to it, that are able to do that and even there "read the fine print" and know exactly what it can and can't do.

For AC coupled systems, those which are simply added to an existing inverter and solar, you'll need to ensure it's not fully discharged during a loss of supply in order to avoid that situation. But since the solar's working, that's doable if you keep a watch on it and manage consumption accordingly.

There are also some AC coupled systems that are a step below that. They'll power the house from the battery but don't fool the inverter into thinking the grid's there. That being so, there's no production from the solar - once the battery's flat you lose power. That's the lowest tier option basically.

For any such system I strongly recommend reading the fine print and getting in writing from the supplier exactly what it can and can't do.

I still reckon the best that I have come across for domestic/on farm use is the Sawyers Valley Flywheel
Perhaps if i was 40 years younger then it would be a no brainer for me or if I win Lotto.

qldfrog · 15 February 2024

SirRumpole said:
What should our future be then, nuclear?

Nuclear is too dear overall unless we need nukes..might not be a bad idea but power plant as side effect.
Solution?
Some hydro solar etc to add to the mix as it can bring cheap input but up to the point where it becomes a problem.
On existing roof, sheds, etc and domestic housing
Batteries a no go, just anecdotal peak buffer
Baseload in coal, gas for buffering the peaks and when we have absence of solar/wind.
Any pumped hydro for excess solar why not...but should be handled by the solar/wind farm entity, and a pricing to ensure 24/7
More or less what we had a year ago
So 30/40% coal a bit of cheap hydro,solar ,wind where it makes sense, gas and we are cruising.
How many off grid systems have no generator?
So if it is the expected minimum for a house or farm,should not we expect as much for a nation?

farmerge · 15 February 2024

qldfrog said:
Nuclear is too dear overall unless we need nukes..might not be a bad idea but power plant as side effect.
Solution?
Some hydro solar etc to add to the mix as it can bring cheap input but up to the point where it becomes a problem.
On existing roof, sheds, etc and domestic housing
Batteries a no go, just anecdotal peak buffer
Baseload in coal, gas for buffering the peaks and when we have absence of solar/wind.
Any pumped hydro for excess solar why not...but should be handled by the solar/wind farm entity, and a pricing to ensure 24/7
More or less what we had a year ago
So 30/40% coal a bit of cheap hydro,solar ,wind where it makes sense, gas and we are cruising.
How many off grid systems have no generator?
So if it is the expected minimum for a house or farm,should not we expect as much for a nation?

The only thing with Hydro rivers or a decent catchment dam of many many hectares of water are needed. Solar and wind not a real problem, But at the end of the day someone with coconuts will have to come forward and hopefully have a sensible solution to the problem and sooner than later.
I've often wondered could the drinking water dams be used to produce hydro through there outlet pipes that service many far and wide.
The big dams and weirs that service Perth come to mind as they have a fair drop to the bottom.

Smurf1976 · 15 February 2024

qldfrog said:
Mr @sptrawler and @Smurf1976 , what about this inconvenient truth?
You are technically competent ,aware..
Is it better to play the ostrich than trying to wake up people..our sons and daughters, and their children will pay, as for our own super ... Rol

My personal view is the approach of massively overbuilding VRE, so that there's enough output even during periods of low wind and sun, isn't workable due to the sheer scale of what's required.

But, having done the maths, it's doable if VRE is built to scale that works based on normal conditions and the gap under adverse conditions is fixed via storage.

For the storage, batteries certainly have a place but when it comes to dealing with major shortfalls, a week or two of minimal VRE yield during winter, then the only serious options technically at this stage are hydro and hydrogen.

Bearing in mind the latter hasn't really been done anywhere at scale, but the plan is to do it in SA and that's being actively progressed for a 200MW (generating capacity) facility. A key attribute being the hydrogen storage itself is a relatively minor component of the total cost, so scaling that up to increase the running time is very doable.

Smurf1976 · 15 February 2024

farmerge said:
The only thing with Hydro rivers or a decent catchment dam of many many hectares of water are needed.

In the Australian context we've more opportunities than most realise.

Qld, NSW and Tas being the dominant states but it's not zero elsewhere, options do exist.

Noting with all of this nothing needs to of itself be a total solution. Nothing precludes doing part of the job with hydro and doing part of it some other way. Indeed practically all power systems (grids) already comprise multiple technologies - a place where electricity is produced from a single resource is actually quite uncommon.

Smurf1976 · 15 February 2024

farmerge said:
I've often wondered could the drinking water dams be used to produce hydro through there outlet pipes that service many far and wide.

There's quite a list of hydro stations that were built as add-ons to dams built for some other purpose (urban water supply or irrigation).

Hume, Blowering, Burrinjuck, Dartmouth, Eildon and quite a few others. The dam was built to store water for some other purpose and the hydro was just an additional benefit of it.

Eg AGL owns the Dartmouth and Eildon hydro stations among others but they don't own the dam wall which belongs to a government water authority. There are restrictions on when the water is released, hence there's a re-regulation pond to allow the power station to operate separately.

Also happens in the reverse direction. Eg Hobart's water supply is largely obtained as a by-product of the Derwent power scheme. The reason for construction was power but taking some water out of the river below the lowest dam and using that for urban water supply was just convenient.

qldfrog · 15 February 2024

Smurf1976 said:
My personal view is the approach of massively overbuilding VRE, so that there's enough output even during periods of low wind and sun, isn't workable due to the sheer scale of what's required.

But, having done the maths, it's doable if VRE is built to scale that works based on normal conditions and the gap under adverse conditions is fixed via storage.

For the storage, batteries certainly have a place but when it comes to dealing with major shortfalls, a week or two of minimal VRE yield during winter, then the only serious options technically at this stage are hydro and hydrogen.

Bearing in mind the latter hasn't really been done anywhere at scale, but the plan is to do it in SA and that's being actively progressed for a 200MW (generating capacity) facility. A key attribute being the hydrogen storage itself is a relatively minor component of the total cost, so scaling that up to increase the running time is very doable.

but as you know, the devil with H2 is storage, leaky as hell, so the longer you store it , the less remains in the tank and the more leaks thru the pipes and seals..hardly a solution for reserve, but yes a possibility if associated to a solar farm to be burnt overnight

IFocus · 15 February 2024

sptrawler said:
Thanks smurf, I've been involved in both island system black starts and grid system black starts.

As I was the cause of blackouts across the NW suspect I would have the edge on you for black start's

sptrawler · 15 February 2024

qldfrog said:
but as you know, the devil with H2 is storage, leaky as hell, so the longer you store it , the less remains in the tank and the more leaks thru the pipes and seals..hardly a solution for reserve, but yes a possibility if associated to a solar farm to be burnt overnight

Technical issues can be overcome and as smurf says, it will be a mix of every available source of supply, there is no other option we can't function without electricity.

So when the coal is stopped something will have to be there to fill the void, what it is remains to be seen, but you can guarantee something will be making the power.

The future of energy generation and storage

sptrawler

qldfrog

SirRumpole

qldfrog

Smurf1976

macca

qldfrog

Smurf1976

SirRumpole

qldfrog

farmerge

farmerge

qldfrog

farmerge

Smurf1976

Smurf1976

Smurf1976

qldfrog

IFocus

You are arguing with a Galah

sptrawler

Similar threads

The future of energy generation and storage

You are arguing with a Galah

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency