The future of energy generation and storage

qldfrog · 4 January 2020

SirRumpole said:
We have the mostest.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/coal-exports-country/

Because we are a small country and do not burn much at home
208m tonnes thermal coal exported, the coking one is irrelevant as there is no substitute but teach that to an extinction rebellion or a green
China yearly production is 3523mt
So our thermal coal yearly export is roughly 6pc of Chinese production, i do not count indonesia, columbia or the us india
We are peanuts so any tax will just mean we will be poorer, someone else richer.. or the usual australian economy story...
Anyway the figure of the day our annual thermal coal export are less than 6pc of China production
Source for thermal coal export the Guardian..lol

sptrawler · 4 January 2020

Humid said:
It shows

I think so, where did you go to school? South or North Island?

Humid · 5 January 2020

Here

sptrawler · 5 January 2020

Humid said:
Here

It shows.

sptrawler · 7 January 2020

Interesting article regarding the bushfires and Snowy 2.0, I hadn't read much about any progress on Snowy 2.0, but it sounds as though construction is underway.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...nowy-hydro-cabramurra-damage-rebuild/11845590

sptrawler · 7 January 2020

It may prove to be a bit of a god send, that the S.A molten salt storage generator didn't get off the ground, a lot of the hype revolved around the 'Crescent Dune' plant in the U.S. which was touted as the way of the future.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-before-it-ever-went-online?srnd=premium-asia
From the article:
In 2011 the $1 billion project was to be the biggest solar plant of its kind, and it looked like the future of renewable power. Citigroup Inc. and other financiers invested $140 million with its developer, SolarReserve Inc. Steven Chu, the U.S. Department of Energy secretary at the time, offered the company government loan guarantees, and Harry Reid, then the Senate majority leader and senior senator from Nevada, cleared the way for the company to build on public land.

SolarReserve may have done its part, but today the company doesn’t rank among the winners. Instead, it’s mired in litigation and accusations of mismanagement at Crescent Dunes, where taxpayers remain on the hook for $737 million in loan guarantees. Late last year, Crescent Dunes lost its only customer, NV Energy Inc., which cited the plant’s lack of reliability. It’s a victim, ironically, of the solar industry’s success over the past decade. The steam generators at Crescent Dunes require custom parts and a staff of dozens to keep things humming and to conduct regular maintenance.

Crescent Dunes has been shut down since April, and the Energy Department took control of it in August, according to a lawsuit SolarReserve filed in Delaware Chancery Court seeking to reverse the takeover. The plant’s technology was designed to generate enough power night and day to supply a city the size of nearby Sparks, Nev. (population 100,000), but it never came close.
Its power cost NV about $135 per megawatt-hour, compared with less than $30 per MWh today at a new Nevada photovoltaic solar farm, according to BloombergNEF, which researches fossil fuel alternatives.

It looks as though Australia dodged a bullet yet again and just underlines the blind charge on ideology, is fraught with danger, as smurf and others have mentioned on numerous occasions.
There is a need to convert to renewables, it make sense on all levels, not just climatic.
However it must be done in a sensible measured orderly manner, not in the usual brain fart method that we so often seem to embrace with gusto.

basilio · 7 January 2020

For the engineers on ASF there is a detailed road map on how Australia can make a transition to a totally renewable energy economy by 2050.
Worth a read ?

A Green New Deal for Australia
This cataclysmic bushfire season demonstrates the risk that climate change poses to Australia’s economic and social prosperity. Stanford’s international roadmap to freedom from fossil fuels by 2050 says Australia needs another 280 GW of solar PV and tens of billions of dollars of investment to turn down the heat.

https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2020/01/06/a-green-new-deal-for-australia/

basilio · 7 January 2020

To add another piece to the transition to renewable energy economy consider this story.
Doesn't it make simple sense to use the taxpayer funds currently going to the fossil fuel industry to support the new direction in Australia's future ?

Should fossil fuels pay for Australia's new bushfire reality? It is the industry most responsible
Amanda Cahill
It is unconscionable that the taxpayer funds fossil fuels to the tune of $1,728 per person per year. What if we channelled this into climate adaptation?

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...e-reality-it-is-the-industry-most-responsible

sptrawler · 7 January 2020

Jeez I wish you would get counselling Bas.
What about if all you dicks went back to basics and didn't use electricity, then we wouldn't have to listen to you and you wouldn't be polluting.
Your sitting there on your power sucking computer, in your air conditioned room to stay out of the way of your missus, while telling everyone they should be not using electricity.
Maybe you should do a TAFE course on electricity, then have some knowledge of what you are talking about, that would be great.
Because at the moment, all it appears is, you are a repeater station for any stupid comment that you think fits the rhetoric.
You don't seem to be interested in increasing your knowledge, because even though accurate information is given to you, you still chose to ignore it and regurgitate the same rubbish.
Why not question the crap you post, before posting it?

ghotib · 7 January 2020

sptrawler said:
Jeez I wish you would get counselling Bas.
What about if all you dicks went back to basics and didn't use electricity, then we wouldn't have to listen to you and you wouldn't be polluting.
Your sitting there on your power sucking computer, in your air conditioned room to stay out of the way of your missus, while telling everyone they should be not using electricity.
Maybe you should do a TAFE course on electricity, then have some knowledge of what you are talking about, that would be great...

Jeez I wish engineers would stop assuming that they have professional insight into how other individuals use electricity. And while they're at it, I wish engineers would realise that calling a comment stupid is not the same thing as disproving it.

Please sp, apply your engineering mind (which I respect even when it's making me cranky) to checking the fossil fuel subsidy figure Basilio cited. Whatever the actual figure turns out to be, I'd love to hear some engineers' ideas about how the money could be used for the greatest national benefit.

Why not question the crap you post, before posting it?

.
I reckon we could all do better at that, except maybe Smurf.

sptrawler · 8 January 2020

ghotib said:
Jeez I wish engineers would stop assuming that they have professional insight into how other individuals use electricity. And while they're at it, I wish engineers would realise that calling a comment stupid is not the same thing as disproving it.

Please sp, apply your engineering mind (which I respect even when it's making me cranky) to checking the fossil fuel subsidy figure Basilio cited. Whatever the actual figure turns out to be, I'd love to hear some engineers' ideas about how the money could be used for the greatest national benefit.
.
I reckon we could all do better at that, except maybe Smurf.

Well with due respect ghotib, I try to read completely every thread relating to power generation, as it was my whole working career.
The problem with Bas is IMO, he copies and pastes everything that comes up on the media, so I have tended to just give it a cursory glance. Which may be a fault on my part, but many of the links are just absolute garbage, so now I look at the first few lines and asume from there. MY Bad.
With regard smurf, he would have been at least one pay grade above me when I worked and as such members should feel privileged to have his input.
Maybe it would be best for people like myself and smurf to not post our thoughts?
I would definitely not post my thoughts and or would distract them, if smurf asked me to, because I would defer to his knowledge.
I wont detract to someone of less knowledge, because in reality that is bullying, which probably you don't agree to.
To cut it short Bas is a dick, unfortunately, typical teacher IMO.
Saying that my FIL was a headmaster, and he was a dick too.
They have answers for everyone else's problems, except for our failing education standards.
Maybe they should post there?

sptrawler · 8 January 2020

ghotib said:
Jeez I wish engineers would stop assuming that they have professional insight into how other individuals use electricity. And while they're at it, I wish engineers would realise that calling a comment stupid is not the same thing as disproving it.

Please sp, apply your engineering mind (which I respect even when it's making me cranky) to checking the fossil fuel subsidy figure Basilio cited. Whatever the actual figure turns out to be, I'd love to hear some engineers' ideas about how the money could be used for the greatest national benefit.
.
I reckon we could all do better at that, except maybe Smurf.

Sorry about that ghotib, maybe go over to the scomo thread I have been arguing the same issue with Knobby, it is really hard to be dealing with the same issues on different threads, about the same silly arguments.
Read the Scomo thread from post #1154, it will answer a lot of your questions.
I'm over being bombarded with the same illogical stuff on multiple threads.
If you want change to to the power system put it in the power thread.
If you want change to the climate put it in the climate thread and switch off your main switch.

sptrawler · 8 January 2020

ghotib said:
st national benefit.
.
I reckon we could all do better at that, except maybe Smurf.

So ghotib, if we have to go through the same process, as I went through from post #1154 on the scomo thread, every time someone posts up rubbish, it would take up a lot of our lives.
So therefore sometimes we get a bit short with posters, that constantly post up nonsense, in the hope it will convert others to the cause.
Everyone accepts the cause, but some don't see it as a cult extreme, that must be achieved next week in Australia or the World is doomed.
No amount of logical explanation will reduce the chanting, jeez the media have a lot to answer for.
Just my opinion.
Obviously Australia has too many bored people, with too much money, they obviously don't have enough to worry about.
Maybe I'm just getting too old, maybe time to leave. lol

SirRumpole · 8 January 2020

Lithium sulfur(sulphur) batteries could provide an advantage over Li-on batteries according to a researcher.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...y-greener-cheaper-and-more-efficient/11849590

qldfrog · 8 January 2020

SirRumpole said:
Lithium sulfur(sulphur) batteries could provide an advantage over Li-on batteries according to a researcher.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...y-greener-cheaper-and-more-efficient/11849590

Thanks but..another one...
Am I the only one at getting really disillusioned with the weekly new battery greener cheaper etc
Absolutely nothing with your post SirRumpole , a very general comment but reading news, seems like we are progressing at light speed here..we do not
No mistake, energy storage is the holy grail but each time a research project needs a funding extension, we got another headline
De facto, incremental improvements are what will make a difference in the short term, yes we should find a revolutionary technology but sadly this is not IT, basic chemistry and an atomic table show you the fundamental restrictions.
My guess is that a completely different field advance will do the level of magnitude battery nirvana
A cathode material, a new fabrication process or way to "melt graphite" differently
In a way this type of headlines produces the Basilios of the world, taking concepts and wishes as established technology

SirRumpole · 8 January 2020

qldfrog said:
Thanks but..another one...
Am I the only one at getting really disillusioned with the weekly new battery greener cheaper etc
Absolutely nothing with your post SirRumpole , a very general comment but reading news, seems like we are progressing at light speed here..we do not

You may be right. Interestingly the article was written by a researcher involved on the project, not an independent reviewer. Has the ABC gone into advertising these days ?

And I acknowledge that a lot of interesting developments disappear without a trace and are never heard from again, however I thought it useful to keep updated on the various possibilities.

basilio · 8 January 2020

From the desk of "Dick" Bas.
Yes I do spend too much time on the computer banging on about a situation that is effectively destroying the world as we know it.
I am also totally xissed off at a stream of lying trolls who have spent their lives undermining the work of climate scientists, biologists, glaciologists, etc whose expertise would have saved us if we followed their findings.

And why havn't we "followed the science" ? Look at the main CC deniers and figure it out .

My post from Stanford University, which had been taken from PV magazine, offered a detailed road map on the costs and opportunities of Australia moving rapidly to a renewable energy future. It is a technical paper and part of an overarching project which offered similar analysis for all countries to move rapidly and effectively to a fossil free energy future. It didn't fall off the back of a truck or was made up in some trolls basement.

I introduced it for professional comment from the known engineers on ASF - SP and Smurf in particular (apologies to others I have overlooked)

The second post which explored how we might pay for this transition had as its reference a paper from the International Monetary fund which detailed all the fossil fuel subsidies made by governments to the industry around the world. I suggest it has weight.

Yes one of my careers has been in teaching. And from that I have appreciated how to look for information and how to assess it for accuracy. Because CC is the issue that will destroy us it has taken a big chunk of my focus. Looking for ways to address the issue - technically, socially and politically is the next step.

This shouldn't be /can't be a "Left Right" issue. We are affected by the same physics. The only other subcontext is the belief of some people that they can buy their way of the mess with enough money while the rest of us face the music.

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications...Update-Based-on-Country-Level-Estimates-46509

Could every country have a Green New Deal? Stanford report charts paths for 143 countries
https://phys.org/news/2019-12-country-green-stanford-paths-countries.html

qldfrog · 8 January 2020

SirRumpole said:
You may be right. Interestingly the article was written by a researcher involved on the project, not an independent reviewer. Has the ABC gone into advertising these days ?

And I acknowledge that a lot of interesting developments disappear without a trace and are never heard from again, however I thought it useful to keep updated on the various possibilities.

No problem at all, this has to be posted here, but as per my rant, it is often biaised and dreams more than facts
The ABC should probably not publish this at this stage...
Partly part of this fake news trends... anything to tweet post need to push something out
The Kardashians of news are everywhere

SirRumpole · 8 January 2020

basilio said:
From the desk of "Dick" Bas.
Yes I do spend too much time on the computer banging on about a situation that is effectively destroying the world as we know it.
I am also totally xissed off at a stream of lying trolls who have spent their lives undermining the work of climate scientists, biologists, glaciologists, etc whose expertise would have saved us if we followed their findings.

And why havn't we "followed the science" ? Look at the main CC deniers and figure it out .

My post from Stanford University, which had been taken from PV magazine, offered a detailed road map on the costs and opportunities of Australia moving rapidly to a renewable energy future. It is a technical paper and part of an overarching project which offered similar analysis for all countries to move rapidly and effectively to a fossil free energy future. It didn't fall off the back of a truck or was made up in some trolls basement.

I introduced it for professional comment from the known engineers on ASF - SP and Smurf in particular (apologies to others I have overlooked)

The second post which explored how we might pay for this transition had as its reference a paper from the International Monetary fund which detailed all the fossil fuel subsidies made by governments to the industry around the world. I suggest it has weight.

Yes one of my careers has been in teaching. And from that I have appreciated how to look for information and how to assess it for accuracy. Because CC is the issue that will destroy us it has taken a big chunk of my focus. Looking for ways to address the issue - technically, socially and politically is the next step.

This shouldn't be /can't be a "Left Right" issue. We are affected by the same physics. The only other subcontext is the belief of some people that they can buy their way of the mess with enough money while the rest of us face the music.

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications...Update-Based-on-Country-Level-Estimates-46509

Could every country have a Green New Deal? Stanford report charts paths for 143 countries
https://phys.org/news/2019-12-country-green-stanford-paths-countries.html

No doubt to me that fossil fuel subsidies should be "gradually" reduced and transferred to cleaner forms of energy and then phased out from those as well as clean energy should be able to pay for itself eventually.

The problem with The Guardian article that Bas quoted (and which appears to have been moderated out as well as the replies) was that it suggested that fossil fuel subsidies should be immediately removed. Considering that FF's provide a substantial amount of our electricity that would result in massive price increases for power and would most likely ruin the economy.

Whatever is done should be transiitional , but should be clearly defined so that there is a known way forward that all sectors of the economy are aware of and can adapt to.

Panic pieces in the media aren't really helpfull.

But I do get a laugh when people like Craig Kelly complain about subsidies to clean energy when their favourite coal is one of the most subsidised industries in the country.

PS, good to see you are still cracking on Bas.

sptrawler · 15 January 2020

Another nail in the coffin of coal fired power generation.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/ban...argest-fund-manager-says-20200115-p53rix.html
The increase in pressure to find funding for coal fired generation, will in turn accelerate the adoption of new generation, the companies are definitely going to have to source replacement energy supplies in the very near future.
The transition is definitely well and truly on the move, once large investors remove themselves from the stocks, generating new cash becomes very difficult I would assume.

The future of energy generation and storage

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