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I'm questioning the philosophy behind the solution. An ETS. I owe no duty to a science that claims I morally should do so, if the consequences of such bring suffering. If fellow human beings will become hungrier and poorer as a result of an ETS, I vote no.
My question is how did the 2035 figure ever get included in the official IPCC position.
Hey GG
I used to sit on your side with this argument. I was always arguing with friends that there was no "solid" evidence of GW. It is easy to dismiss a lot of the "science" when there is an obvious conflict of interest (ie a report from a scientist from the "Global Warming Research Institute") They are never going to publish anything which disputes the argument.
Now I am no researcher, or scientist for that matter, however after spending 6 months looking at the topic during a Post Grad unit I now find it pretty difficult to argue that a) Global warming is not occuring (I never argued it wasnt, I just argued that humans were not the cause and it was "natural") b) Humans are not the primary cause.
If you have plenty of time on your hands read the Stern Report. I found it pretty interesting and it opened my eyes to a lot of unknowns. It is bloody long, so just pick out the parts you find interesting.
I would be interested to hear if, after reading the Stern Report, you still maintain your argument.
All the best.
Blacky
I think prosecuting climate change advocates is just a waste of energy. We just need a good ol neck tie party to string up a few of the main culprits and that will quieten down the rest of the rabble.
I'm glad (maybe ) that Garpal and co have seduced a few new people into arguing against their denier conspiracy theories. I just hope these newbies don't spend too much time working out that no amount of considered scientific research, logical argument or even the simple possibility that even if there was a 10% chance our CO2 emissions were going to knock us off we should do something about it is going to move these guys. Good luck.
Over and out.
The proposed solutions have not one tiny thing to do with the science of whether or not it's happening.
Not. One. Thing.
The science it not saying one tiny thing about what you should or should not do, simply what is happening and what may happen given different courses of action. IF you want to avoid climate change, you need to reduce the amount of CO2 going into the atmosphere, or do something else to cool the planet. How you go about that is for the politicians to work out. There's also a lot on what will happen if you do nothing, in case you want to try to just ride it out. That action is up to the politicians too.
...and of course, they screw it up. That's their job. Our political systems are built to make sure pretty much nothing effectual ever gets done.
But if it's your concern about human suffering that is driving you, then I'm a bit confised how you can say that the likely effects of climate change will do less damage to the poor and hungry than the development of sustainable energy sources (something we are going to have to do anyway, in the long run). Food shortages are one of the most likely effects of climate change.
So we can do something when we're forced to, or we can do it now and avoid the addional pain of major climate change. Either way we do it, but which way has less pain?
Sorry, missed this one.
There's a decent discussion here: http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/01/a_beat_up_of_himalayan_proport.php
Are you actually interested, though? You want to think it's just a (really inept) conspiracy, right?
If you prefer your definition, so be it. The semantics will not change what is is occurring in the natural world.Let me rephrase - "anthropogenic" climate change is a hypothesis, particularly co2 induced AGW.
Why climate change is a 'scam'
Here's a link to an interview by The Age with Lord Monckton
http://media.theage.com.au/opinion/...c-clouds-the-weather-issue-20100201-n8y3.html
Good to hear he touches on the consequential school of ethics when it comes to hunger in third world countries and the use of bio-fuels. Rather than just follow the deontological fallacy of the science.
GL:
DO YOU UNDERTAND THAT YOUR DISLIKE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES, SOLUTIONS AND POLITICAL NONSENSE SURROUNDING THIS ISSUE HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT AGW IS HAPPENING?
I bold that because, no matter how much I talk about the science, you guys keep coming back with political bull**** that has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I've read quite a bit of it and found a major, fatal flaw in the Report. Specifically, it assumes emissions from the combustion of natural gas and particularly oil that substantially exceeds the vast majority of credible estimates of world recoverable reserves.Now I am no researcher, or scientist for that matter, however after spending 6 months looking at the topic during a Post Grad unit I now find it pretty difficult to argue that a) Global warming is not occuring (I never argued it wasnt, I just argued that humans were not the cause and it was "natural") b) Humans are not the primary cause.
If you have plenty of time on your hands read the Stern Report. I found it pretty interesting and it opened my eyes to a lot of unknowns. It is bloody long, so just pick out the parts you find interesting.
I would be interested to hear if, after reading the Stern Report, you still maintain your argument.
If a scientist told you you were about to drive off a cliff, and told you you need to either turn your car or prepare for freefall -> impact, would you rant against him for daring to tell you what to do? If a politician said that, no, you should just jump out your window and throw him your wallet, would you STILL RANT AGAINST THE SCIENTIST?
New info from the UK Guardian that a Chinese bloke measuring Temperatures in China for all these graphs was fiddling the results
....Sceptics seem to think the AGW issue is a house of cards and if they can remove a card or two here and there the whole thing will come falling down. That's clearly not the case. Most of what we know about AGW has come from multiple different sources. There are thousands of interwoven strands, and if one or two of those strands turn out to be so flawed that the papers in question require retraction, it won't make any difference.
... prosecuting climate change advocates is just a waste of energy ...
Over and out.
ROTFLNuttiest. Thread. Ever.
GG, you've set the bar higher (lower ..? further ...?) than I could have imagined. I'm stunned with an amazement bordering on stupefication(sic)
Mr GumnutIt would appear that the global warming debate has been a combination of ignorance, misguided science, greedy opportunists and gullibility in equal measure, by those who argue in its favour.
Mr Gumnut
May I make observations about you, firstly, that you are a stirrer - based on the wonderful thread titles you initiate - and secondly that your audience cares significantly more about these dodgy topics than you.
Congratulations for flushing out so many gullible globe trotters.
I suspect you would equally be willing to propose that those of ignorance, misunderstanding the science, greedy and gullible in equal measure, who deceitfully argue against global warming should be prosecuted.
Maybe not?
As my few posts in this thread bear out, the science of radiative forcings is not on the table for discussion - at least not with Mr L - yet these forcings measured for greenhouse gases underpin climate change theory.
And for Mr L's benefit I am specifically talking about the "theory", and not about a hypothesis.
Climate change theory is predicated on a vast array of empirical data that fits the measurable forcings and is able to be demonstrated through a general circulation model (also known as a global climate model). Predictions into the future may be hypothesised, and this is likely an area that Mr L would contend undesirable.
Mr Gumnut hits the nail on the head when he talks about the level of debate in the general community, but is quite amiss if he thinks this is occurring in the climate science arena.
More and more empirical data becomes available each year, and as it does it gives greater credence that the "theory" is stacking up.
Arguments for the prosecution do not.
As my few posts in this thread bear out, the science of radiative forcings is not on the table for discussion - at least not with Mr L - yet these forcings measured for greenhouse gases underpin climate change theory.
And for Mr L's benefit I am specifically talking about the "theory", and not about a hypothesis.
Climate change theory is predicated on a vast array of empirical data that fits the measurable forcings and is able to be demonstrated through a general circulation model (also known as a global climate model). Predictions into the future may be hypothesised, and this is likely an area that Mr L would contend undesirable.
Mr Gumnut hits the nail on the head when he talks about the level of debate in the general community, but is quite amiss if he thinks this is occurring in the climate science arena.
More and more empirical data becomes available each year, and as it does it gives greater credence that the "theory" is stacking up.
Arguments for the prosecution do not.
You had ample opportunity to provide your views on the science that underpins climate change theory, but have chosen belittlement instead.Apparently, in the AGW religion it is a greater heresy to speak in favour of sustainability outside of the co2 dogma, than to be an outright denier.
Pielke Snr has found this out as well.
Why is that?
Regarding theory. If one reads outside of the narrow focus of the AGW religious canon, one can see very quickly why the AGW hypothesis cannot qualify as a theory in the strict sense.
You had ample opportunity to provide your views on the science that underpins climate change theory, but have chosen belittlement instead.
It is a sad indictment of the menatlity that some bring to this topic.
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