NBN Rollout Scrapped

todster said:

Do you want a cost benefit analysis with that too

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Sure, why not?


I think that "sinner" pretty much 'hit the nail on the head'.

For medical purposes, fine, get the ultra fast speed you need for ERT services. But why does an average home need 100mb/s?

DB008 said:

But why does an average home need 100mb/s?

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• Multi channel HD live video streaming
• 200+ player game servers hosted in Seoul
• 200+ player game servers hosted by you

In short pretty much anything you would want to do is possible...the mind boggles with the working from home possibility's.

DB008 said:

Sure, why not?


I think that "sinner" pretty much 'hit the nail on the head'.

For medical purposes, fine, get the ultra fast speed you need for ERT services. But why does an average home need 100mb/s?

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OK i live in Perth show me the cost benefits Sydney to Brissy to me?
Nation building in the 1900s

Garpal Gumnut said:

Doc,

It's been done by the ALP and they are ignoring it publically.

As I said in the first post of this thread, it has been decided at a higher than elites level, that it is to be scrapped. "We just need the NSW election out of the way for this to happen" Quote, unquote from my highly placed source.

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The rope to the NSW ALP suould be cut with the hope that it sinks without a trace.

What are you smoking north of the Tropic Of Cancer ?
There's more chance of Macquarie going broke than there is of the NBN being scrapped. Delays and even cancellations to some areas is perhaps the only political way out for the ALP. This will happen anyway as, I suspect, the ALP government us unlikely to last the duration of the rollout.

Watching Stephen Conroy announcing it's cancellation though would in itself be worthy of cancellation.

drsmith said:

...
Watching Stephen Conroy announcing it's cancellation though would in itself be worthy of cancellation.

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I just cannot believe that anybody can commit so much funds without much scrutiny.

This is democratically elected dictatorship.

DB008 said:

I wonder who the person behind "NBNMyths" handle is?
Is it Mr. S Conroy? Someone in the Labor party? Or just a punter who loves Labor and really does like the NBN that much?

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Sinner said:

I am pretty sure we could come up with an ingenious solution fitting our population density that acts as an example to the rest of the world rather than a follower.

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You're 1/3 right. I am a punter who "really does like the NBN that much"

I certainly don't "love labor", but federally I have voted for them more often than not.

I really know very little about Conroy, don't think I've ever watched him speak. I think his proposed filter is a moronic, stupid idea, if perhaps well intentioned. I've certainly never voted for him, because I have never voted Labor in the senate (Where's Don Chipp when you need him.

All that said, I'm quite open to viable alternatives to the NBN. But, I have not seen any proposed.
The coalition plan (if you can call it that) is dismal.
The greens basically support the NBN.

Mobile broadband isn't viable.
Copper is at end of life.
HFC is as expensive as the NBN, and not as good

Perhaps a WiFi/WiGig-style grid network would be an option, but there isn't anyone of note proposing such a thing, it would require a massive rollout of fibre for backbone anyway, and I don't know if it would be practical from a OSS/BSS point of view. I would think that if such a network was a viable option, then someone smarter than me would have proposed it.

Even the CSIRO, who have developed a nice new wireless broadband technology are saying it's only viable for low-density areas.

NBNMyths said:

All that said, I'm quite open to viable alternatives to the NBN. But, I have not seen any proposed.
The coalition plan (if you can call it that) is dismal.
The greens basically support the NBN.

Mobile broadband isn't viable.
Copper is at end of life.
HFC is as expensive as the NBN, and not as good

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I'm with you mate. I phoned up Telstra this morning again to see if I could get an ADSL connection to my house here on the Central Coast. They said all the ports were full in the exchange (as usual) and I had no other option but wireless. I've been on their wireless 3G network for around 18 Months and it is not an ideal system. It lags in downloading and the signal locks up on wet rainy days and I can't get anything. Anyhow I told Telstra that if I can't get ADSL then please cut off my phone and they did.

There are thousands of people living in my suburb and this area in general. It is a growth area and we can't get reliable internet. Turnbull and co. did nothing to address these shortfalls for all those years they were in power. Now someone wants to do something and he's against it, what a tosser. Bring on the NBN, the sooner the better.

sinner said:

2. The whole NBN plan seems f*n stupid, start to finish. I'm not sure exactly who is barracking for it, and are they doing it only through a sense of "oh this is the best this Govt could possibly offer, let's just take it".

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All that said, I'm quite open to viable alternatives to the NBN. But, I have not seen any proposed.
The coalition plan (if you can call it that) is dismal.
The greens basically support the NBN.

Mobile broadband isn't viable.
Copper is at end of life.
HFC is as expensive as the NBN, and not as good

Perhaps a WiFi/WiGig-style grid network would be an option, but there isn't anyone of note proposing such a thing, it would require a massive rollout of fibre for backbone anyway, and I don't know if it would be practical from a OSS/BSS point of view. I would think that if such a network was a viable option, then someone smarter than me would have proposed it.

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Q E D.

If this is your reasoning for adopting a pro NBN stance, I am against. I don't want a crappy NBN just because people thought they couldn't do any better. As a trader, I often look to history as a guide to the future. In this case, I see no historical precedent other than the complete and utter luddite nature of various Australian govts.

NBN could open up endless telecommute opportunities, but that is contingent on the Govt not screwing up their role in this. A few on this thread seem to be quite willing to ignore all prior transgressions and give the Govt another go at molesting us. Trying to call a top in Govt idiocy. In case you missed it, the trend is up! We need to put these f***** to the fire, and then find some visionaries to change the country.

sinner said:

Q E D.
...I don't want a crappy NBN just because people thought they couldn't do any better....

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You might have a preferred alternative, but I don't think you can call the current proposal "crappy"! It's has been widely acclaimed by telecommunications professionals as an excellent concept. Fact is that no-one of any note has proposed anything any better.

In case you missed it, the trend is up! We need to put these f***** to the fire, and then find some visionaries to change the country.

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Great idea, but where shall we find them? The coalition had 18 broadband plans in 11 years, and didn't really achieve anything over that time.

Bill M said:

I'm with you mate. I phoned up Telstra this morning again to see if I could get an ADSL connection to my house here on the Central Coast. They said all the ports were full in the exchange (as usual) and I had no other option but wireless. I've been on their wireless 3G network for around 18 Months and it is not an ideal system. It lags in downloading and the signal locks up on wet rainy days and I can't get anything. Anyhow I told Telstra that if I can't get ADSL then please cut off my phone and they did.

There are thousands of people living in my suburb and this area in general. It is a growth area and we can't get reliable internet. Turnbull and co. did nothing to address these shortfalls for all those years they were in power. Now someone wants to do something and he's against it, what a tosser. Bring on the NBN, the sooner the better.

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As I understand it 3G was developed for voice and not data.
4G is specifically developed for data, and will deliver 100Mbps bandwidth with much higher reliability. contention issues will still apply. zero cost to tax payer.
Cheers

joea said:

As I understand it 3G was developed for voice and not data.
4G is specifically developed for data, and will deliver 100Mbps bandwidth with much higher reliability. contention issues will still apply. zero cost to tax payer.
Cheers

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No doubt you have to be in the CBD

todster said:

No doubt you have to be in the CBD

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you maybe correct there!

What makes me wonder is what does Telstra knows.
People say the copper line is obsolete.

The technicans that come in my area are locals. They say the resin that the joins are
in, is sowly dissolving the copper wire and every join would have to be re - done with another product.

So is the copper wire stuffed? or is the resin the problem?

I am still wondering if 4G is all it is cracked up to be.

Cheers

joea said:

As I understand it 3G was developed for voice and not data.
4G is specifically developed for data, and will deliver 100Mbps bandwidth with much higher reliability. contention issues will still apply. zero cost to tax payer.
Cheers

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And it's the contention that is the issue. For a 4G network to deliver an actual download speed of 100Mbps would be almost impossible. Even the highest "4G" implementation (1Gbps) is shared, so a tower could only deliver 100Mbps if there were only 10 people active on it, along with perfect weather and no topographic or engineering features obstructing the signal. Current 4G implementations are only (per cell) 150Mbps, with 300Mbps not too far away. In which case, you could only get 100Mbps if there were only 1 or 3 people connected respectively. And anyone making a phonecall on that tower would also slow the data speed, since wireless treats a phone call as a data connection (albeit at a lower data rate).

So I guess if you sat at the bottom of a tower, in Cooper Pedy, at 3am on a Monday morning, you might get that sort of speed. Once 4G eventually migrates throughout the network of course.

But all the above is beside the point. Wireless data is a complementary service to fixed, not a competing one. Yes, we'll eventually get a 4G service at no cost to the taxpayer (Except probable rural USO subsidies). But it won't replace our fixed networks.

Delimiter has a wonderfully blunt post covering the issue:

Let’s get one thing very, very clear straight away: Any form of over-the-air mobile broadband is not – in any way – a replacement for a wired network like the NBN. It’s just not. What it is, however, is a fantastic piece of complementary technology that allows consumers and business the chance to expand their horizons beyond what’s available if you’re limited to development on a PC chained to desk.

Of course, the idea of having two similar but different technologies existing at once and providing similar services is completely beyond the seemingly small minds of those opposing such a situation.

From http://delimiter.com.au/2011/02/15/lte-will-kill-the-nbn-just-as-unicorns-are-real/

joea said:

you maybe correct there!

What makes me wonder is what does Telstra knows.
People say the copper line is obsolete.

The technicans that come in my area are locals. They say the resin that the joins are
in, is sowly dissolving the copper wire and every join would have to be re - done with another product.

So is the copper wire stuffed? or is the resin the problem?
I am still wondering if 4G is all it is cracked up to be.

Cheers

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I think one would lead to the other through oxidization corrosion

todster said:

OK i live in Perth show me the cost benefits Sydney to Brissy to me?
Nation building in the 1900s

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Sure, and l'll get an example of a federally funded project in any state that doesn't benefit me in NSW. The list can go on forever....

NBNMyths said:

You might have a preferred alternative, but I don't think you can call the current proposal "crappy"! It's has been widely acclaimed by telecommunications professionals as an excellent concept.

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Right...

Sooo...vested interests who will profit from the venture tout it as an excellent concept.

This is national infrastructure we are talking about. If it was a actually a good plan, you can be quite sure you would have no issue selling it to the populace at large as a good plan!

That is of course, unless you were willing to argue that we as a nation are so unused to the concept of a Govt looking further than the next election into our futures, that we are unsettled and therefore naturally resistant.

In which case I would still be prompt to question both the ability and the motives of this Govt in proposing the plan.

For the record, I am not a telecommunications expert but am and have been involved in many projects which are both on the infrastructure and technology scale in this country, the scope of which were all expanding communications ability.

I think your words "widely acclaimed" paint with slightly too broad a brush, (no pun intended) and make you sound like a shill (although I'm not actually proposing you are).

My own evaluation of the plan is that it is an awesome plan, great, perfect...if it was proposed 10 years ago. Which is pretty much in keeping with our countries trend of technological adoption.

The Govt has proposed exactly bubkis in exactly how this is a good plan other than a patronising version of "build it and they will come". Where are the proposals for changes to small business regulation? Where are concessions and incentives for e-business to set up shop here as opposed to say, anywhere else in the world that can be administered from Aus?. Powerful retail lobby is making noise about GST online, Govt remains pretty much silent on the issue. Uncertainty sure is a great climate for entrepreneurs.

Fact is that no-one of any note has proposed anything any better.

Great idea, but where shall we find them? The coalition had 18 broadband plans in 11 years, and didn't really achieve anything over that time.

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Right. Q E D on my earlier point, * 2.

This is a huge strawman, setting up an even crappier plan by even crappier politicians as a relative basis reasoning for why this plan is good.

DB008 said:

Sure, and l'll get an example of a federally funded project in any state that doesn't benefit me in NSW. The list can go on forever....

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Over here in WA we just hear a big gurgling sound of Victoria and NSW sucking the dollars out of WA

IFocus said:

Over here in WA we just hear a big gurgling sound of Victoria and NSW sucking the dollars out of WA

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Totally offtopic IFocus, but here you go

http://www.perthnow.com.au/business...-states-boost-wa/story-e6frg2qc-1225984781899

So um....no.

IFocus said:

Over here in WA we just hear a big gurgling sound of Victoria and NSW sucking the dollars out of WA

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I agree to an extent.


It is a balancing act IFocus.

2 million people in WA or 7.2 million in NSW.

sinner said:

Sooo...vested interests who will profit from the venture tout it as an excellent concept.

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There are a few issues with this statement.

First, if you're a real telecommunications expert, then it stands to reason that you will benefit in some way from the NBN (if it's a good plan). You can't use that as an argument that it's not a good plan. The fact is that telco experts work in the telco industry, and they benefit from telco projects. If you don't work in the telco industry, then you're probably not much of an expert.

What I'm getting at is you can't have it both ways. If you want the opinion of real experts, then you have to accept that they will work in the industry.

Second, there are many experts (eg from overseas) who will not directly benefit from the network who are praising it, and people who would benefit equally from any type of fast network, who are promoting the NBN as the best solution. If it were only money these people were interested in, then they have nothing to gain by promoting FTTP over decent HFC, for example.

This is national infrastructure we are talking about. If it was a actually a good plan, you can be quite sure you would have no issue selling it to the populace at large as a good plan!

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I have to disagree. As is patently clear from the comments surrounding the NBN, much of the population has absolutely no grasp of the technical issues involved. Without such knowledge, it makes it hard to 'sell' a technical project.

That said, the Govt is doing an atrocious job of explaining it to them.

The Govt has proposed exactly bubkis in exactly how this is a good plan other than a patronising version of "build it and they will come". Where are the proposals for changes to small business regulation? Where are concessions and incentives for e-business to set up shop here as opposed to say, anywhere else in the world that can be administered from Aus?. Powerful retail lobby is making noise about GST online, Govt remains pretty much silent on the issue. Uncertainty sure is a great climate for entrepreneurs.

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I agree that the Govt has done a bad job of selling the benefits, and in facilitating fundamental changes that the network may achieve. In their defence however, it's very early days...

That said, I think things are beginning to change on this front and am hopeful that a momentum has begun:


So while it's been a slow start, I think the above are moves in the right direction. I would hope that there are many submissions to the inquiry supporting sweeping changes to work practises and incentives to enable telecommuting etc which will be facilitated by the NBN. Maybe the Public Service can lead the revolution.

This is a huge strawman, setting up an even crappier plan by even crappier politicians as a relative basis reasoning for why this plan is good.

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My point (again) is that no-one of any note is proposing a viable alternative to the NBN. Not politicians, nor the telco industry, nor the telco 'experts'. So if none of these people are proposing a 'better' plan, then where shall we get one from? If you ask the telcos, they say "the NBN", if you ask the experts, they say "the NBN". Who else should we ask?

Personally, I would say that this situation is a pretty good indication that such a plan does not exist.