hissho said:hi
i'm very puzzled by the thing called "market makers" and would like to ask for some enlightenment. anyone here who used to work as a MM?
1) it's said that market makers are there to provide liquidity. is it correct? is providing liquidity their only job?
Yes. No- they are there to make money as well.
2) are market makers allowed to make money? there's a big difference between "they are allowed to make money if an opportunity presents itself" and "they are trying to make money WHENEVER possible"...
see 1)! they are there to make money WHENEVER possible, and considering the spreads they offer, it's pretty well all the time.
3) how can i tell if a bid-offer spread is put there by the market makers or natually by different bidders and sellers? i mean it's easy to tell when you can't find bid-offer prices---you just call your broker and request a quote--that quote must come from a market maker; but when you see a spread with bid-offer prices and with a very small open interest, for example 5, how can you tell?
Normally they are the ones trading in round lot numbers, so if you look at the spread, and 10 on the bid and 10 on the ask, it's quite possibly a MM
4) do market makers do trades with other market makers? Will a market maker be able to tell(using their proprietary software) if a trade comes from another market maker or a private trader?
Probably, but I don't really know.
any help would be greatly appreciated,
hissho
pretty damn close professor. options market makers are there to make money and deal with retail and insto clients. Its a little different in the cash market!!professor_frink said:answers in red mate.
this may also helpspitrader1 said:pretty damn close professor. options market makers are there to make money and deal with retail and insto clients. Its a little different in the cash market!!
Better fill me in on which parts I was a little off on spi- I'll have my professor tag stripped from me by the international professor's association if I'm caught giving out dodgy advicespitrader1 said:pretty damn close professor. options market makers are there to make money and deal with retail and insto clients. Its a little different in the cash market!!
haha....you werent wrong on any...but i can provide clarification on one issue, of trading with each other. How else would they get access to liquidity when they want to Prop trade (they do this as well as performing there MM job)-----just a hint, most of the banks view the market making department as a way of getting there prop traders reduced ASX fees, not as a primary market making department.professor_frink said:Better fill me in on which parts I was a little off on spi- I'll have my professor tag stripped from me by the international professor's association if I'm caught giving out dodgy advice
Phew... Can keep my title for nowspitrader1 said:haha....you werent wrong on any...
that doesn't surprise me at all.spitrader1 said:but i can provide clarification on one issue, of trading with each other. How else would they get access to liquidity when they want to Prop trade (they do this as well as performing there MM job)-----just a hint, most of the banks view the market making department as a way of getting there prop traders reduced ASX fees, not as a primary market making department.
Sorry Hissho, completely missed your question-wasn't at the computer last night.hissho said:helloooo professor!
any more help please? I heard MMs all hedge themselves perfectly so i'm wondering how they hedge themselves. and if they are always properly hedged, how can they lose money?
thanks again!
hissho
hissho, there is no such thing as a perfect hedge. even if a MM hedges there delta, they still have interest rate risk, divindend risk, volatility risk, without even getting into the second derivatives like gamma. Of course MM's can loose money. THats why only the good ones last. And dont forget, as ive already said, to most of the MM's, making markets is a secondary feature to there real role, which is derivative prop trading.hissho said:Thanks Professor!
just a follow-up question: if MMs are there to make money and do it whenever possible, is there a chance that they could lose money? if they do have a chance of losing money, what could be the cause? maybe because of failing to hedge themselves successfully? but MMs are all perfectly hedged aren't they??...need some more enlightenment
cheers
hissho
Hello hissho,hissho said:hi
i'm very puzzled by the thing called "market makers" and would like to ask for some enlightenment. anyone here who used to work as a MM?
1) it's said that market makers are there to provide liquidity. is it correct? is providing liquidity their only job?
2) are market makers allowed to make money? there's a big difference between "they are allowed to make money if an opportunity presents itself" and "they are trying to make money WHENEVER possible"...
3) how can i tell if a bid-offer spread is put there by the market makers or natually by different bidders and sellers? i mean it's easy to tell when you can't find bid-offer prices---you just call your broker and request a quote--that quote must come from a market maker; but when you see a spread with bid-offer prices and with a very small open interest, for example 5, how can you tell?
4) do market makers do trades with other market makers? Will a market maker be able to tell(using their proprietary software) if a trade comes from another market maker or a private trader?
any help would be greatly appreciated,
hissho
Magdoran said:But if you’re exiting on stop, and they see you coming, they may widen the spread, or skew it as people get shaken out of positions. This is partly how they can maximise their profits.
Magdoran your whole post was very good !
With reference to the above, would you say using stops with CFDs ( MM ) is like showing them your hand (cards) each time you play ?
Bob.
Bobby said:Absolutely.Magdoran said:But if you’re exiting on stop, and they see you coming, they may widen the spread, or skew it as people get shaken out of positions. This is partly how they can maximise their profits.
Magdoran your whole post was very good !
With reference to the above, would you say using stops with CFDs ( MM ) is like showing them your hand (cards) each time you play ?
Bob.
“Knowledge is power”
In a game where money is at stake, you really have to consider the greed equation of human nature, and think every avenue through thoroughly from an historical perspective of the ingenious ways people aim to accumulate wealth, either legitimately or not…
Magdoran
ErrataMagdoran said:The way market makers deal with dividends is generally to adjust the volatility levels, reducing the volatility of call values incrementally as they near exdiv (and resetting post exdiv to normal), and increasing the volatility proportionally as they near exdiv (again resetting post exdiv).
Magdoran said:Gee Mag , the MMs must just love the dopes that set stops.Bobby said:Absolutely.
“Knowledge is power”
In a game where money is at stake, you really have to consider the greed equation of human nature, and think every avenue through thoroughly from an historical perspective of the ingenious ways people aim to accumulate wealth, either legitimately or not…
Magdoran
Yes Knowlegde is power ,.
I remember Henry Kissinger's womanizing , although Henry physical looks were at best crook, he did have a knack of pulling young pretty females who loved his Power above his looks.
Regards
Bob.
H.G. Wells said:If you jiggle your order up and down, they’ll smell an amateur if their operator is awake, and they may play spread games with you widening the spread, enticing you to enter at a less favourable level, even if the underlying does nothing at all. Beware of this, this is a standard market maker trick. I found you really have to have an approach in mind (almost a preconceived tactic) based on your view of the underlying and what it will do.
This intrigues me, wonder if there is a pendulous strategy to play the mouse in disguise ?wayneL said:Haha yes! MM games are legendary stuff; good for hours of amusement if you know how they think. Cat & Mouse!
The fun part is in deciding who is the cat and who is the mouse. LOL
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