How are people cutting queue on ASX sell order?

TangoDown · 4 June 2024

Using Stake as broker to submit orders. And I was tracking my order on comsec and could see my sell order place was #10 in Q for $26 last week and today it was at #2 in Q at price of $26 and there was only around 13,000 before me to sell.

10 mins later i can see atleast 24 different order before mine.

Price did go down to $25 and came back up to $26.

When the price is back at $26 why am I not in same sale order queue position? How is this possible? I did not amend my order.

divs4ever · 4 June 2024

welcome to ASF

the short answer is i don't know

now one thing i can tell ( via a Commsec ann. ) is that Commsec in particular gives trades between Commsec clients preference and labels them NXXT

now logic would say other brokers/platforms do this , but i have never seen any release saying they do ( or label it in any fashion )

but actually being pushed back in the line ( except in the opening and closing auctions ) i don't remember seeing that during a normal trading session

PS CXA orders ( through Chi-X ) are listed later on Commsec , but in reality would be matched with other Chi-X orders as a first preference

cheers

frugal.rock · 4 June 2024

Conditional orders and dark market voodoo and high frequency trading.

With some fancy order coding to ASX specifications, brokers can place conditional orders where a small portion of the (sell) order is at a lower price with conditions set to sell that amount and then the higher priced amount.
In essence, they push their order to the front of queues like this, as part of their order is a lower price than yours and others.
Same can happen on buy orders.

Dark market orders by brokers can be part priced in the middle of available tick order range for retail.
EG, a share price at $0.135 is available to retail, or $0.13 or $0.14, however dark market orders can specify "mid point" being, in this example, $0.1325 and $0.13575

Research lit markets and dark markets and mid point trading and high frequency trading.
Brokers can set orders by time and volume and price etc pretty much whatever trigger condition they want.
The little retail guy bears the brunt of this behaviour.

Apparently, the ASX reports 10% of trade volume is on the dark market. That was quite a few years ago now...

Good luck in the shark pool.
I stay low like a bottom feeder and accept the rewards that make it to the bottom.

Smurf1976 · 4 June 2024

divs4ever said:
Commsec in particular gives trades between Commsec clients preference and labels them NXXT

Well that’s answered something. I’ve seen that, never knew what it meant.

divs4ever · 4 June 2024

Smurf1976 said:
Well that’s answered something. I’ve seen that, never knew what it meant.

am not sure if other platforms use the same label , and i suspect full service brokers would have been quietly doing this for years/decades

TangoDown · 4 June 2024

frugal.rock said:
EG, a share price at $0.135 is available to retail, or $0.13 or $0.14, however dark market orders can specify "mid point" being, in this example, $0.1325 and $0.13575

This is understandable but price i see that cut q are not factional they are exactly my price.. e.g. I was at #2 position for SELL $26 and they are now at #2 SELL for $26 not $25.5 or $25.9. And i got pushed down to #24 position to SELL at $26

divs4ever · 4 June 2024

TangoDown said:
This is understandable but price i see that cut q are not factional they are exactly my price.. e.g. I was at #2 position for SELL $26 and they are now at #2 SELL for $26 not $25.5 or $25.9. And i got pushed down to #24 position to SELL at $26

check at the open ( after the auction as well ) and see if the line-jumpers vanish overnight

i have seen some weird stuff on the buy/sell lists over the last 12 years

peter2 · 4 June 2024

ETF administrators don't seem to follow the ASX rules. Some ETFs open when the market opens for the A-B even though they don't start with A or B. On many occasions the market depth doesn't show my in the market buy or sell orders, especially before the open and sometimes at the open.

One thing I don't know is when we amend an in the market order does it keep it's original time or get a new one.

TangoDown · 4 June 2024

peter2 said:
One thing I don't know is when we amend an in the market order does it keep it's original time or get a new one.

What i have noticed is that when you amend to increase vol, anything new will go to bottom on Q.
If you are amending to reduce vol you retain the position..

frugal.rock · 4 June 2024

TangoDown said:
This is understandable but price i see that cut q are not factional they are exactly my price.. e.g. I was at #2 position for SELL $26 and they are now at #2 SELL for $26 not $25.5 or $25.9. And i got pushed down to #24 position to SELL at $26

I would assume their orders have a conditional component where part of their order is dark IE at a lower price, and the rest of the order is at the price you see.

A single conditional order example is,,
sell 10 shares at $25.995 then sell 10,000 shares at $26.
It's one order.

No see, you don't see the 10 shares component of the order because it's dark, you only see the rest.
Because they do it this way, they are selling cheaper than you to start or trigger their order which is the sneaky way to push in.

divs4ever · 4 June 2024

TangoDown said:
What i have noticed is that when you amend to increase vol, anything new will go to bottom on Q.
If you are amending to reduce vol you retain the position..

in normal shares ( REITs and LICs yes , but in ETFs that doesn't seem to be that transparent and seems to be much as @peter2 says from my observations maybe that has something to do with the 'market-makers '

How are people cutting queue on ASX sell order?

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