- Joined
- 6 January 2009
- Posts
- 2,300
- Reactions
- 1,131
I think there is maybe a lot of a backstop with 20-something buyers.. "if it all falls in a heap, we'll just move back with Mum & Dad.." The bail out mentality once again. And the parents are pretty much supportive of this, after all they were the ones letting them stay at home until 25 years old.
If any of you watched "The Nest" on SBS last year, it was amazing how little independence some people have even at 25 years of age!
With today's news from Residex, that there have been widespread falls across Australia, I believe this thread is now appropriate. I therefore request that the 'House prices to keep rising for years' thread be closed, due to the fallacy of it's title.
Questions:
- How long will the falls continue?
- What is causing the falls
- What will arrest the falls?
- Due to Australia's real estate boom being even greater than other Western economies, can we assume that the bust will be even greater?
- Are these falls evidence that decoupling theory can be put to bed?
Ultimately, only morons invest in houses. And the only reason they go up is because there seems to be an unlimited supply of morons. It's paradoxical. But this wave of reality as everything returns to reasonable value, will have the majority of naive australians dumbfounded why they now have a $300,000 loan and a $150,000 house hahaha.
Technically, there is no good reason to really invest in houses, unless you could predict a major housing shortage in the near future. But even then, that is microeconomical, and macroeconomics always trump it. Considering the costs involved, all they are really doing is preventing money from being debased if it were held in your hand.
the real answers are as follows:
-until 2011-12 or so
- deflation (end of the credit cycle)
- the police? arrest? huh? What will stop the falls? collective global confidence to finally catch the falling knife without getting cut
- hmmm...there are other factors... prolly similar bust as uk/us
- decoupling of what? NOTHING is decoupled when it comes to macroeconomical inflation/deflation of a global magnitude
Ultimately, only morons invest in houses. And the only reason they go up is because there seems to be an unlimited supply of morons. It's paradoxical. But this wave of reality as everything returns to reasonable value, will have the majority of naive australians dumbfounded why they now have a $300,000 loan and a $150,000 house hahaha.
Technically, there is no good reason to really invest in houses, unless you could predict a major housing shortage in the near future. But even then, that is microeconomical, and macroeconomics always trump it. Considering the costs involved, all they are really doing is preventing money from being debased if it were held in your hand.
the real answers are as follows:
-until 2011-12 or so
- deflation (end of the credit cycle)
- the police? arrest? huh? What will stop the falls? collective global confidence to finally catch the falling knife without getting cut
- hmmm...there are other factors... prolly similar bust as uk/us
- decoupling of what? NOTHING is decoupled when it comes to macroeconomical inflation/deflation of a global magnitude
Ultimately, only morons invest in houses. And the only reason they go up is because there seems to be an unlimited supply of morons. It's paradoxical. But this wave of reality as everything returns to reasonable value, will have the majority of naive australians dumbfounded why they now have a $300,000 loan and a $150,000 house hahaha.
Technically, there is no good reason to really invest in houses, unless you could predict a major housing shortage in the near future. But even then, that is microeconomical, and macroeconomics always trump it. Considering the costs involved, all they are really doing is preventing money from being debased if it were held in your hand.
Would it be fare to say the morons you're referring to are the FHB's getting into the market now; just before they lose their jobs?
I know a few seemingly smart people, that are getting into the housing market now. I was a little dumbfounded, but I guess performing at one particular area of education/work/life doesn't mean you don't have a weakness in other areas eg, investment
Fact, Australian banking standards are better than overseas.
Fact, Australian borrowers are better placed to cope with the recession than those overseas.
Fact, Australian house prices will hold up better than overseas houses.
Or so we are told. Of course it's mainly the vested interests that tell us. But you know what, the numbers still don't stack up. In fact, all the statistics and 'facts' provided by the vested interests can easily be used to argue the case for a housing crash.
Now, we don't know for certain when a crash will happen, but the way the pump is being primed at the moment, it won't take long. And chances are we could even see a false rally in house prices in coming months as all the tax breaks and subsidies filter through.
But after that...
That's when it could get messy. You see, I still can't get past the 'bullish' statements on property without thinking, "surely that a top-of-the-market signal."
Let's take a couple of recent comments:
"We continue to believe that the market here will hold up better than overseas. There are a number of reasons why this is likely to be so, but perhaps the most important is that we did not have the same deterioration in lending standards that occurred elsewhere."
That came from Reserve Bank of Australia deputy governor, Ric Battelino. I'll address his comments on lending standards in a moment. But he also had this to say...
"In the period ahead, there will be forces pulling the arrears rate in opposite directions. On the one hand, as unemployment rises, more households will have difficulty continuing to service their housing loans. On the other hand, the very large reduction in interest rates has greatly reduced the debt servicing burden of households. On an average-sized mortgage, loan repayments are now $7,000 a year less than they were six months ago. This is a very large reduction, equal to about 8 per cent of average household income."
In other words his argument is "Recession, what recession?" Forget the concept of a perfect storm conspiring to make thing worse, Battelino argues that the recession will be a Perfect Summer or a Perfect Spring. Everything will be fine. Don't worry about it.
We can only think that Mr. Battelino is unfamiliar with recessions. Or that he's got the blinkers on. It is true that interest rates have come down to such as extent that the average borrower is saving about $500 per month on mortgage repayments.
But can it really be true that if someone loses their job they will be fine? Of course not. If your income drops from $60,000 per year to zero, then having a saving of $500 per month on your mortgage isn't going to be much comfort if you can't afford the other $1,500.
Also Mr. Battelino shouldn't forget that by this time next year, that half the saving from the interest rate cuts will have been eaten away by inflation. So even if interest rates stay low, the cost of other goods and services will have risen.
And think about this as well. Where is most of the boost in new home buying coming from? Most of it is from first home-buyers. They are the ones likely to have the least equity and least savings. What would happen to a first home buyer if they lose their job?
According to JPMorgan, the unemployment rate will hit 9% later this year. When companies start to cut staff, who will they chop first? Chances are the company will make the newer staff member redundant first, as the cost of terminating that employee will likely be less.
So if a first homebuyer loses their job, they are less likely to receive a significant severance package compared to those that have worked longer. Of course, that's all hypothetical. But even the most ardent property bull would probably agree it's not as rosy as saying "interest rates down, unemployment up, everything will be fine."
And what about Mr. Battelino's comments on the lending standards of Australian banks. It's a comment that we have seen written everywhere. In fact it is almost a cliché. If you say it often enough it must be true.
Again, the numbers don't stack up. If we quickly look at the commercial property sector, comments from Gail Kelly at Westpac and Mike Smith at ANZ clearly indicate the banks have over-exposed themselves to marginal projects. If they truly were as conservative as is claimed they should have little problem with taking market share by financing new projects now.
The reason they aren't, is because they are at the limit (if not over) of what they can lend.
But what about the residential property sector, and the claims of Australian banking superiority here.
Again, it is a fallacy.
Back in February, the Commonwealth Bank introduced a policy that required borrowers to provide an additional 3% on top of any government subsidy. Notice the emphasis? In other words, prior to February borrowers didn't need this. They could just get the cash from the government and that was all that was required.
Is a no-deposit mortgage Mr. Battelino's idea of a better level of lending standards?
At the same time the National Australia Bank announced it would cut its loan-to-valuation ration from 100% to 95%. Again, how is that a higher level of lending standards? The only reason a bank would lend 100% of the value of a property is because they believe the value would rise.
And why wouldn't they, that's what everyone has been told. The banks obviously started to believe their own spin.
But wait, it gets even better than that. Because of Australia's superior lending standards it means you can go to the Westpac owned RAMS Home Loans and take out a loan for 110% of the full purchase price.
Now that probably isn't news to you. 'Lo doc', 'no doc' and 'no deposit' home loans have been around for years. Except that the top brass at the RBA and the banks and the mainstream media appear to have forgotten that.
Because they have told themselves so many times that our banking system is so much better run than anywhere else.
Even the property spruikers are using the 'strength' of the Australian banking system as part of their sales pitch. In today's Australian Financial Review (AFR), chief executive of RP Data-Rismark Christopher Joyce says:
"The resilience of Australia's housing market has been underpinned by our robust banking system. The improvement [in house sales] highlights the absurdity of the sensationalist predictions by one or two economists in 2008 that prices would fall 30 to 40 per cent."
The paper also reports that RP Data-Rismark national research director, Tim Lawless claims the better sales figures represented a "return to stability" and that "In essence, it's static and we will see that for the next couple of quarters."
What we are seeing now in the property market is a 'suckers rally.' Just like the ones we've seen in the stock market since early 2008.
Despite what the policy makers claim about the banks being robust and lending standards being high, the reality paints a different picture. And right now the artificially low interest rates and government subsidies are just going to make things worse.
If you're after a property bargain, you're probably better off waiting until next year.
Just in case some of you missed this latest newsletter from Monday Morning.
Of course, I'm not expecting this would be viewed upon favourably by those who have vested interests with real estate properties.
Can you post the author/source of that article please?
Beej said:PS: Many many holes in the logic there. The first and biggest is the author forgets about unemployment benefits and other social welfare payments that families effected by unemployment would receive, plus also makes no attempt to estimate how long many households could hold out for based on savings, forward payments on the mortgage against the contracted schedule etc etc. Most people don't remain unemployed forever.
Bottom line, I'm not saying that rising unemployment is not a factor that has the potential to place downwards pressure on house prices, but the potential impact is being over-estimated in articles like yours above. You would need a significant number of very forced sales across all area's in a city/country to see any dramatic downwards shift in median prices. Beej
This perhaps explains why, As Rory Robinson from Macquarie Bank has pointed out in several articles, during past recessions house prices have actually continued to rise on many occasions in line with rising unemployment rate, so I think this issue is not as black and white as many would hope.
Beej
I also note that last year and the year before the housing bears arguments were all pinned on a great credit contraction forcing a wave of defaults and forced sales ala US sub-prime. Now that has failed to eventuate here, all the bearish outlooks seem to be pinned on rising unemployment triggering a wave of forced sales, something that in past recessions at least has actually not occurred!
Beej
Robots,
Picking the few suburbs (those will high FHB - government assisted) does not strengthen your arguement that house prices are not falling.
I reviewed the Sunday Sun list of property prices per suburb. Interesting some suburbs did Ok and some did not so well, the last qtr being more telling to the slide into recession that is now facing us.
Even our beloved PM sees we cannot swim against the tide any more. Given this statement, is property the only thing that is going against the current trend for assets - I hardly think so.
Like Steven Keens bet, how about we have a fun wavier to keep everything in good spirits. I will bet you that house and apartment prices in Victoria based on median will be negative after the 2nd qty results are released. This would be deemed a fall, how much, as long as it is negative. If I loose I will buy you a case of your favourite beer and vise visa. To finalise the deal, we meet in a pub in sunny St Kilda (a great place to live i agree), have a few beers and a meal and leave with our bounty.
On the issue of renter over mortgage, please factor in a value for if property prices fall, even 5%. I would rather be the renter - times are a changing.
Cheers
Benjamin
hello,
one up bro, looking forward to those ruskies and parma bro
we can debate all arvo and still walk out as friends man
thankyou
robots
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?