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wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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I thought I would open this thread in the interest of keeping this topic off of threads where people might not be interested in it.

I would like to keep it open to all views, whatever version of Christianity, agnosticism or atheism.

Will add as time/interest forms, but interested in all your views.
 
Hmm Wayne this could be a can of worms opened.
 
farmerge said:
Hmm Wayne this could be a can of worms opened.
Click to expand...
It shouldn't be. The fact that an Itinerant Jewish rabbi by the name of Yeshua lived and was executed by the Romans is a matter of recorded history, most notably by Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus.

Even though his ministry was only 3 years He somehow inspired his followers, against great persecution and risk to their lives (until the conversation of Emperor Constantine), to spread his message.

The question is, who was he? Christians are just people that believe he is who he claimed to be.
 
It's a very interesting subject once you get into it.

There have been two schools of thought in the Christian church.

a. Salvation is provided by having faith in Christ alone.

b. The path to Salvation is by doing good works and helping one's fellow man.

The first group is your average church goer. Pray to Christ for salvation and you will end up in heaven. There is no need to do anything else as long as you believe. They may put a few sheckles in the collection plate on Sunday, but otherwise they are absolved from doing anything for anyone else.

The second group are people who actually get out and help others. The Salvation Army, Vinnies, Pink Ladies etc.

Which group you belong to depends on what part of the Bible you want to cherry pick that suits your own lifestyle. I personally admire group b. the most but no doubt the majority of group a. are good people, but there are extremes who are definitely not good people in the way they treat others.

A friend of mine wrote the following piece on "Faith v Works" if anyone is interested.

Faith vs works? | Way Forward

the-way.info
 
Yes this is the timeless argument between Catholics and Reformed.

Faith + Works = Salvation

or

Faith = Salvation = Works

In other words the question becomes do you do good works to EARN God's grace, or do you do good works BECAUSE of God's Grace. Interestingly both can have the same result at the institutional level.

Vinnies - Catholic
Anglicare - Anglican

Many in your group A do good works but keep very quiet about it.

Mt 6:1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Also, the question must be asked, what are works?
 
qldfrog said:
physical, spiritual needs?
while atheist, i have to say that strong Christian brlievers are better persons than the average, and better than myself.
Click to expand...

Some are, it depends on what they choose to believe.

There are also a lot of "secular Christians" who help people because they believe it's the right thing to do, not because of any association with a church.
 
SirRumpole said:
Activities that help people in need?
Click to expand...
That's part of it for sure. But there is a lot more to it from the Christian perspective:

In addition to say helping the poor-
Attending group worship
Emotional support for the bereaved
Sharing the Gospel
Good stewardship of the earth
Prayer
For Catholics, even confession
+++
 
SirRumpole said:
Some are, it depends on what they choose to believe.

There are also a lot of "secular Christians" who help people because they believe it's the right thing to do, not because of any association with a church.
Click to expand...
Very true, which plays into the sola fide side of the article you posted
 
SirRumpole said:
Some are, it depends on what they choose to believe.

There are also a lot of "secular Christians" who help people because they believe it's the right thing to do, not because of any association with a church.
Click to expand...
I being a non believer and therefore have no right of passage to a better after life.
But I will stand by anyone in need of help, not because I seek to be "found" and become a "born again" person, but because it is what was instilled into me as a child by my parents.
There are those that are "needy" and then the ones who have been dealt a hard life and are truly the "needy".
 
qldfrog said:
physical, spiritual needs?
while atheist, i have to say that strong Christian brlievers are better persons than the average, and better than myself.
Click to expand...
Ah Mr Frog "Strong Christian believers" yes perhaps good people but if they then to start pushing their beliefs onto you ad nauseum then not so good.
General term from the circles I move in "God Botherers".
Only you know if you are a "good" person or not.
I feel that I am a "good" person and I don't have to have a religion to prove it.
 
if they are pushy, they do not respect you and probably not such good Christian imho.
something i did not mention is, as an atheist, i feel easier to deal with Protestants than Catholics.
the idea of confession, redemption overall yes, not that keen on Catholicism.
 
Some of the "born again" types that have crossed my path over the years tend to be re-invigorated Catholics, and as such seem to have the idea that their version of the Scripyures is the one and only.
As a kid I dutifully went to Sunday School each week, as was the way back in the 50'sand 60's.
As I got into my early teens to me it just seemed like a lot of fairy tales and I decided that I could find other things that interested a lot more.
The funny thing now is that when I married my wife of 53 years she was a Catholic, not a true believer, and even less these days.
 
Christianity is not about being a good person, we all know that we all have faults. While it's good to be good, we know that's not what gets us there. I don't think most Christians give a hoot about how good people think they are, because there's plenty of @ssholes in the church too.

On my side of the fence (though Catholics and Orthodox have a different view and rely more on what they call the magisterium)

Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone): The belief that the Bible is the only infallible and sufficient authority for the Church and for faith and practice.

Solus Christus (Christ Alone): The assertion that salvation is only made possible through the mediatorial work of Jesus Christ.

Sola Gratia (Grace Alone): The doctrine that salvation, from beginning to end, is a gift from God's grace and not a result of human works.

Sola Fide (Faith Alone): The conviction that a believer receives Christ's redemption through faith alone, not through faith and works.

Soli Deo Gloria (To the Glory of God Alone): The belief that all honor, glory, and praise for salvation belong to God alone, not to any human or institution.
 
So assholes will be saved as long as they believe they will be, while good people who haven't had the benefit of reading Christian teaching will all go to hell?

That's where I part company with the Christian church I'm afraid. Their doctrine makes no sense to me.
 
A bitter old man once wrote, after burying three of his four children and his wife of thirty four years:

There is no god,
No universe, no Heaven, no Hell.
It is all a dream,
a grotesque and foolish dream.
Nothing exists but you,
and you are but a Thought -
a vagrant Thought,
a useless Thought,
a homeless Thought,
wandering forlorn among the empty eternities.
 
There's a reason everyone tends to want to live in Christian built societies. The loss of faith will lead to 3rd world standards. Just a personal opinion.

Im not particularly religious but the teachings reinforce good values that glue societies together. Doesn't mean there aren't bad eggs, but as a whole it benefited society to a large degree.
 

Take away the wars and hatred started by religion and yes society has benefited.
 
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