CSS - Clean Seas Seafood

[sashimi]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

I am torn between whether I should try to contribute to this business by opening up a discussion of what in my view is where the industry is going wrong.

For me it all seems quiet simple.

We all know that Clean Seas Tuna watch and read this forum and someone reports back and we all know that critisizm is easy but positive contribution is not so readily forth coming.

The point is::
Is there anyone else who would be interested to participate in this discussion

 

[sashimi]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

I have now read today's Australian article about Clean Seas Tuna and as a result I retract my previous offer to discuss this further.

I understand that the, what I call at the very least an ambiguous statement,
that all the fingerlings died,
their continuous defense of this statement and the fact that in today's Australian the statement that in April they expect to have fish in an ocean sea cage has left me wondering.

Technically I believe and again it is my own personal opinion,
that to go from zero fish a couple of weeks ago to young tuna swimming in a sea cage in April is almost technically impossible at this point in time.

Again and it's my opinion,
that it's entirely possible that they have set about manipulating the stock market price to allow another major player or two, to buy in at rock bottom prices knowing that they are going to make this move in April.

Keeping in mind they do not need many fish to complete this task and get away with.

If I recall correctly, nearly 25% of the company shares changed hands at the time, a significant investment that must have been prepared,
and at a time when many people are calling this company a failure.

It's clear that someone does not agree with this, to the tuna of 25% of the company.

Now again this my opinion, but it's a reasonable statement to make,
that many people do not consider that true and full disclosure has been made in the past in respect to their activities.

As I believe that at this point,
it's technically impossible for them to go from nowhere today, to somewhere tomorrow makes today's statement in the Australian either,
untrue, false or at the very best mis-leading or they know something no-one else knows.

Its seems to me, that they cannot have it both ways.

So either way you want to look at it,
something is very fishy about this whole project
and the way i see it today, only time will tell.

Do your own research make your own conclusions as this is opinion only.

 

[WiseMum]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

All my reading, and understanding of CSS (albeit significantly less learned than many contributors on this site) has not turned off the alarm bells.
I really want to believe, but the truth just doesn't seem to be out there.
The only thing I feel sure of is that unless you're on the inside, it's a casino bet at best. There are so many other opportunities out there that can be understood, with real facts and timely disclosure that I just can't justify any investment in this company. It really does seem little more than a spin on the chocolate wheel.

 

[sashimi]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

I am now getting to the point where I think I understand the process.

1) 15-20 adult mature adult tuna are required as brood stock, if possible half female and the other half male.
2) GnrHa hormone is administered by spear intramuscularly on or nearby the top of the shoulder.
3) within two days spawning takes place, eggs and sperm float to the surface.
4) fertilization takes place.
5) After which the eggs begin to sink.
6) During the 10 days it takes for the embryo to form into a baby tuna it sinks to the depth of between 200 and 300 meters where it hatches.
7) as their is little else to feed on it develops cannibalistic features in order to survive.
8) It then begins its journey back towards the surface
9) Refuge for the babies is created by darkness and then schooling behavior.

The cycle has begun.

 

[Bolle]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

wow i was eating when i read that... just lost my appetite.

no seriously, i hold this stock so i'm interested, just unsure of the point you're making?

are you still discussing timeframe?

 

[Sdajii]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

I am now getting to the point where I think I understand the process.

1) 15-20 adult mature adult tuna are required as brood stock, if possible half female and the other half male.
2) GnrHa hormone is administered by spear intramuscularly on or nearby the top of the shoulder.
3) within two days spawning takes place, eggs and sperm float to the surface.
4) fertilization takes place.
5) After which the eggs begin to sink.
6) During the 10 days it takes for the embryo to form into a baby tuna it sinks to the depth of between 200 and 300 meters where it hatches.
7) as their is little else to feed on it develops cannibalistic features in order to survive.
8) It then begins its journey back towards the surface
9) Refuge for the babies is created by darkness and then schooling behavior.

The cycle has begun.

10) The larvae are fed rotifers
11) The larvae grow large enough to eat fish eggs and YTK larvae
12) The larvae grow to fingerling stage
13) The fingerlings drop dead

14) Repeat for several consecutive years until funding expires, broodstock dies or the lynch mob finally gets you

14) (alternate) After failing to get to stage 12 once, then getting to stage 13 twice, lie to ASX convincingly enough to buy enough time to run off with remaining money.

 

[tge oracle]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Does anybody know how many fingerlings were produced last year and what happened to the juvenile fish? The last information we had was the picture of someone holding a fish of about 1-2kg towards the end of last year , around Sept-Oct, but there has been no information from CSS what so ever on last years spawning, other than it happened.....I guess!

Basilica / Truevalue any ideas or info on this ?

 

[Sdajii]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Does anybody know how many fingerlings were produced last year and what happened to the juvenile fish? The last information we had was the picture of someone holding a fish of about 1-2kg towards the end of last year , around Sept-Oct, but there has been no information from CSS what so ever on last years spawning, other than it happened.....I guess!

Basilica / Truevalue any ideas or info on this ?

They got about a dozen past fingerling. If my memory serves me, around November last year they were down to about three or four.

 

[Basilica]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

I am now getting to the point where I think I understand the process.

1) 15-20 adult mature adult tuna are required as brood stock, if possible half female and the other half male.
2) GnrHa hormone is administered by spear intramuscularly on or nearby the top of the shoulder.
3) within two days spawning takes place, eggs and sperm float to the surface.
4) fertilization takes place.
5) After which the eggs begin to sink.
6) During the 10 days it takes for the embryo to form into a baby tuna it sinks to the depth of between 200 and 300 meters where it hatches.
7) as their is little else to feed on it develops cannibalistic features in order to survive.
8) It then begins its journey back towards the surface
9) Refuge for the babies is created by darkness and then schooling behavior.

The cycle has begun.

The cycle usually begins with conditioning that is like courting where the eggs develope in the female before the hormone. The ratio is often 2 x females to 1 x male.

 

[Basilica]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Does anybody know how many fingerlings were produced last year and what happened to the juvenile fish? The last information we had was the picture of someone holding a fish of about 1-2kg towards the end of last year , around Sept-Oct, but there has been no information from CSS what so ever on last years spawning, other than it happened.....I guess!

Basilica / Truevalue any ideas or info on this ?

Ultimatly they all died or their would have been an anouncement if the news was good.
I never saw the photo of the 1 -2 kg fish but heard about it here. I very much doubt it was raised by CSS it may have been media fluff and part of the wild catch for growout. If it was raised at CSS there would be no out of water photo shoots. And the world would have to guess if it was raised or captured. Do you have a link to the photo Oracle?

CSS bought the growout from Hagen for $X and now it is likley to be sold we may find out if a fair price was paid. How much will they sell it for?
$X / 2
$X /10
$X
?

 

[tge oracle]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Ultimatly they all died or their would have been an anouncement if the news was good.
I never saw the photo of the 1 -2 kg fish but heard about it here. I very much doubt it was raised by CSS it may have been media fluff and part of the wild catch for growout. If it was raised at CSS there would be no out of water photo shoots. And the world would have to guess if it was raised or captured. Do you have a link to the photo Oracle?

CSS bought the growout from Hagen for $X and now it is likley to be sold we may find out if a fair price was paid. How much will they sell it for?
$X / 2
$X /10
$X
?

Basilica,

The picture is on page 13 of the September 2009 Investor Update. The ASX announcement release date for this presentation is 22/09/09.

I assumed that this was one of the juvenile SBT they produced, but in hindsight, I think this is just another misleading representation as there was no reference to this fish being one of their aquaculture bred fish. As you suggest, it is probably a wild caught fish......a very misleading photograph for investors in my view.

 

[Basilica]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Basilica,

The picture is on page 13 of the September 2009 Investor Update. The ASX announcement release date for this presentation is 22/09/09.

I assumed that this was one of the juvenile SBT they produced, but in hindsight, I think this is just another misleading representation as there was no reference to this fish being one of their aquaculture bred fish. As you suggest, it is probably a wild caught fish......a very misleading photograph for investors in my view.

Yes it is misleading Oracle,
The image name is "500g sbt.jpg" (when you hover the mouse over it)
So probobly younger than 1-2 years. The use of a surgical glove adds to the implication that it is bred by CSS. It is on the page "Kingfish" so has no business being there anway. I have never heard what their max age for SBT has been but if they top the 100 days that Panama has achieved they will tell the world so i assume less than that.

 

[tge oracle]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Yes it is misleading Oracle,
The image name is "500g sbt.jpg" (when you hover the mouse over it)
So probobly younger than 1-2 years. The use of a surgical glove adds to the implication that it is bred by CSS. It is on the page "Kingfish" so has no business being there anway. I have never heard what their max age for SBT has been but if they top the 100 days that Panama has achieved they will tell the world so i assume less than that.

Yes, they will do anything to mislead investors. I think this photograph is probably from the Kinki University propogation of NBT and may well be a marine biologist holding an aquaculture bred NBT, but not CSS's.

 

[truevalue]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

I have been a little shy about posting on this forum in recent weeks simply because it appears to have degenerated into a Cleanseas hate club.

I have been devastated by the events that have rocked the stock over the last 18 months-2 years. 3 years ago this was my biggest portfolio position and now, sadly, it is my smallest. I have not only had to wear the financial losses associated with the share price decline but I have had to cop a lot of flack from friends and family who have also suffered financially and blame me for their losses, rightly or wrongly.

Having said that, I blame no-one but myself for my losses, I am not angry about disclosure, or lack thereof, at the end of the day the best disclosure in the world would have still seen CSS in the position it is in today. I don’t see management as crooks or even dishonest, I see them as people who have taken on an extraordinarily difficult task and are doing their best to succeed. Clearly I underestimated the risks of the CSS business and for that I have paid. I underestimated the challenges of closing the lifecycle of SBT. I underestimated the market for Kingfish, thinking CSS would easily sell all they could produce. I underestimated the challenge of getting feed conversion ratios right. I underestimated the effect of the strong $A. I underestimated the bank’s risk of withdrawing funding. I underestimated investor impatience and the long time delays associated with the R&D.

I have no doubt that greed blinded me to these risks, but I was also blinded by the passion I felt for the business and the importance of its success and, for that, I loved being part of it. I have quoted a poem below by Teddy Roosevelt which I think epitomises Hagen Stehr.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

I don’t know if CSS is going to make it. I doubt it can remain a public company and achieve its aims of producing 10,000t of SBT. If it does close the lifecycle of the SBT then I believe there is enormous value in its IP and that will be recognised in some manner. In that case I believe CSS will be privatised by a third party who will also fund its growth.

If it goes broke or if it is bought out, either way I will feel like a guys who has lost his true love.

 

[Basilica]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Yes, they will do anything to mislead investors. I think this photograph is probably from the Kinki University propogation of NBT and may well be a marine biologist holding an aquaculture bred NBT, but not CSS's.

I do not think it is a NBT from Kinki as the photo is labled SBT.
It would make sense for CSS to keep a sample all sizes of fish from their SBT wild catch to learn from their experiences of this size fish.

Truevalue, I agree that it was not the act of crooks, however Hagen did allow for all outcomes when setting up CSS with the huge related party transactions (now larger value than current CSS market cap i think) and i doubt he will be the big looser in any outcome. I am still unclear what his initial investment was in CSS and if his position is cash flow positive or negitive.

PS. I am not as negitive on the possible outcomes as some of the recent commentors, If the growout is sold the hatchery is not that expensive to run and may still achieve success in the long term. So long as they dont borrow money.

 

[sashimi]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

The more I learn about breeding tuna the more amazed I am at how everyone goes about it.

1) You would think that people engaged in this business would try to re-create the natural circumstances that tuna experience in wild.

2) Prevention of Cannibalism .

Why on earth does everyone try to eliminate this from the equation. Its nonsense its part of their life cycle. It's what keeps them going. Its the same for all pelagic fish.
At this point in time it should be encouraged not defeated.

3) Light
Switch the bloody lights off. Trying to recreate what goes on on the surface is also nonsense. At 200-300metres there is no light to speak of just some far off glow something that represents hope for the babies light at the end of the tunnel that's where i should go.

4) Prevention of the eggs from sinking.
Tuna have a negative buoyancy that's a fact.
All the effort is to keep them from sinking more nonsense.
It does not compute

You should provide the opportunity for them to sink.
I am sorry we can't do that. Its impossible because then we have to admit we are wrong and low and behold that's the last thing we can do.

I apologize if I have to be brutally honest with everyone but i cannot see any sense in what's happening.

This is my opinion only and I'm nothing but a street walker but it seems to me I've always had more sense of this anyone else. I am not a scientist nothing more than a dumb assed fisherman who can,t get a job.
Because there in no fish left in Australia.

I am sorry we cannot adapt to suit the tuna in the wild. we have to adapt the life cycle to suit us in the laboratory but don't worry there will be another bucket of money tomorrow after we are scientists.

If Clean Seas have problems it's because they listening to wrong people who are giving them the wrong information for the wrong reason.

Around the world it's a big secret race. No-one is really sharing anything that's not already known Everyone is competing against each other to be biggest hero.

If you want success here open up your minds think outside the square.
and again get out of the laboratory and get to sea.

Until then I very sincerely doubt that any one has a chance of getting this industry to a point where it is commercially via-able.

 

[tge oracle]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Truevalue/Basilica/Sashimi and other investors,

Firstly, I don't think this has turned into a hate forum Truevalue but investors are undoubtedly disappointed, angry and searching for answers. I guess we will have to agree to disagree over the disclosure issue but I don't necessarily blame Hagen or Management for this. Lazard, Lonsec ,Patersons and others have a lot to answer for in advising CSS on the corporate protocols of being a publicly listed entity.

I , like yourself, was a true believer in CSS and , I too, invested a substantial sum in CSS on two separate occaisions. As I advised , in earlier posts, I sold out as I could " read between the line's " on much of their reporting. Call it good luck, intuition or whatever but the reason I felt this way was that I wasn't convinced that I was being told the full story, just edited highlights.
I hope you are able to regain your profits in CSS or through another investment.....we have all been there at sometime in our investing careers, if nothing else it makes us wiser investors.

It disappoints me that CSS didn't , at least, turn the YTK business into a profitible business. SBT was always going to be a long and painful road.

Perhaps Sashimi was right , let's try to see where CSS can go from here.
I think de-listing and going private is probably their only hope , but this is frought with danger as private companies don't have the same regulatory and financial reporting protocols and investors may well be left even more in the dark. They would need to find a foundation investor with deep pockets for this to suceed in anycase.

 

[nizora]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Does anybody know how many fingerlings were produced last year and what happened to the juvenile fish? The last information we had was the picture of someone holding a fish of about 1-2kg towards the end of last year , around Sept-Oct, but there has been no information from CSS what so ever on last years spawning, other than it happened.....I guess!

I have heard that they were all dead.
I wish the company would do the right thing , keep their shareholders informed! Not to let them guess in the dark.

 

[Sdajii]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

I have heard that they were all dead.
I wish the company would do the right thing , keep their shareholders informed! Not to let them guess in the dark.

I think their attitude is along the lines of: Better to leave investors in the dark, guessing things are bleak than to turn on the light and confirm their suspicions.

 

[rowdy15]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Hi Guys,

I just bought in a small holding at 0.13c.

I have read all the recent comments on this forum and also some older ones.

I am a scientist. I do scientific research for my day job.

Let me tell you one thing, that almost invariably happens all the time in research.

Firstly, 99.99% of the time, a successful experiment will take more than one attempt (one attempt however is what is anticipated by the scientist, or more likely the scientist's boss) before you can have confidence in the data.

Secondly, 99.99% of the time, a project is composed of many experiments.

Therefore:
If working out how to close the reproductive cycle of SBT is composed of 10 experiments and each experiment takes 3 attempts to be succesful, then this means 30 experiments might need to be conducted in reality for the completion of the project.

This is despite the scientist's boss expecting the project to be completed in 10 experiments.

I tell you all this because I believe the shareprice has bottomed out. According to my calculations, the truevalue of CSS at the moment is approximately about 26 cents per share. 108 million (total equity) divided by shares on offer.

As long as the scientist gains information on why the fingerlings died then the project will move forward.

The only problem is if the project can be completed before the money runs out.

If the project can be completed before the money runs out, then the shares will be worth quite a lot due to intellectual property gained.

If the company actually demonstrates they can go commercial and do a deal with Japan. the share price will go well above $2 bucks. Possibly up to $10.00.

Of course this is my own opinion and I have a fresh outlook on CSS as I have only stumbled upon it in the last week or two.

DYOR

Rowdy15