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Christmas

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From the Racism thread ...

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14057&page=9&p=892309#post892309


Just some history --

“The earliest historical source that exists which places a pagan holiday on December 25 is the proclamation by Roman Emperor Aurelian of a celebration of Sol Invictus on that day in 274 CE.
The earliest Christian reference to December 25 as the birth of Christ, however, dates from 202 CE.”

“There is no doubt that Santa Claus in its present form is a fairy tale or myth. However, there really was a Santa Claus.
The name ‘Santa Claus’ is an Anglicized form of the Dutch Sinter Klaas, which in turn meant ‘Saint Nicholas.’

“Nicholas was a Christian bishop in the fourth century about whom we know little for sure.

He apparently attended the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325, and a very strong tradition suggests that he did show unusual kindness toward children. While the red-suited old man in a sled pulled by flying reindeer is a myth, the story of a children-loving old man who brought them gifts probably is not ”” and in many countries, that is all there is to ‘Santa Claus.’

http://www.biography.com/news/st-nicholas-santa-claus-origin-story
 
Tink said:
The earliest historical source that exists which places a pagan holiday on December 25 is the proclamation by Roman Emperor Aurelian of a celebration of Sol Invictus on that day in 274 CE.
]
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No Tink, winter solstice is any event marked by cultures all around the world dating back to prehistory.

The Bible itself even mention people celebrating it, by bringing in a tree.


The earliest Christian reference to December 25 as the birth of Christ, however, dates from 202 CE.”
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Yeah, don't you find that weird?

that the earliest reference to the birth date of Jesus comes 202 years after said birth, the fact that there is zero documentation or artwork etc that was made during the life of jesus is in my opinion evidence that the Jesus story may be a myth.

I mean I know the supernatural stuff is a myth, just like the super natural stuff about santa is a myth, but as you mentioned the santa character is based on a real person, but its possible that the Jesus story is actually a complete fabrication.



Even if there was a Jesus, the bible character with all the supernatural stories is a fabrication with no real relation to the real person, much like the santa character and st Nick
 
Value Collector said:
So that shows that Tink is wrong, and the pagen celebration did exist before Christmas.
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I doubt Tink would be wrong, merely putting out the argument for discussion. My mum is a weekly church goer and we kids were all Sundayschoolised & Churchafied; there was never any doubt that Jesus didn't look like an Italian with paper thin skin and that his age is a side issue and that it's commonsense to have celebrations when there isn't pressing jobs to do like sowing, ploughing, copulating and harvesting. The Queen herself has a myriad of birth dates.
 

I mean she is wrong with her claim that that the Christian celebration predates the pagan one.
 
Value Collector said:
I mean she is wrong with her claim that that the Christian celebration predates the pagan one.
Click to expand...

I didn't notice that bit, but yeah whatever reference she is quoting seems to be rather optimistic that the foreboding of winter wouldn't spawn some kind of festival before the challenges of making it out the other side thawed out, pliable and breathing. Even more important when you consider living past your thirties was an achievement back then ...
 

And if we didn't have something to celebrate, we would just have to make something up, we all need to drink, eat, be merry and let people know we love them, those are what Christmas is to most.





Here is a great song that wraps up the meaning of Christmas perfectly in my view.

 
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Value Collector said:
And if we didn't have something to celebrate, we would just have to make something up, we all need to drink, eat, be merry and let people know we love them, those are what Christmas is to most.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but if you believe what is said about pagans, they tended to celebrate nature rather than the science behind the wonder of food, water and life. But then again you see the need for the spiritual in the Oz aboriginal culture and they are the last remnants of the first wave out of Africa, albeit carrying some genetic traits from across the straights.

It's almost as if there's a correlation between organised religion and progressive society; as that society stalls so too does the complexities of the religious dogma.

Don't forget that Jesus wasn't averse to drink and food either, he even got his mate Judas sh1tfaced and double dared him to dob on him before the roosters had finished their daily ritual...... someone should have taken his car keys!
 
Turns out the St Nick story is weirder than I thought, lol

 
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Would you say that the story of Mohammed and therefore Islam is just as mythical as the story of Jesus and Christianity ?
 
SirRumpole said:
Would you say that the story of Mohammed and therefore Islam is just as mythical as the story of Jesus and Christianity ?
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I think Mohammed was a real person. From what little I do know it seem there's a lot of evidence that he the person existed.

As to hearing God's words and ascend to Heaven on that rock where his followers later build the tomb around it... that's all fiction and myth. At least that's how I see it.

Then of course generations later his live and deeds are romanticised and mythologised. He's probably just one of those warrior king who managed to established both a religion, a people and an empire.


As an aside... throughout Eastern/Chinese history, there's a few characters who were real people but due to "god-like" ability, popular culture and act of the state, they became god and have temples built after them. With people worshiping, praying to them as a literal God.

So if you go to any Chinese Temple you'll see a red-faced, long bearded guy with a a long sabre... He was Guang Chung - a famous general during the Three Kingdom period (collapse of latter Han).

People worship and pray to him for courage, loyalty and martial ability. All Chinese Triads and Police pray to the same dude for the same reason - just different aims.


The Romans did that too.. where the emperor can decree some special people as a god. or made themselve into a god to be worshipped in those far flung colonies.
 
SirRumpole said:
Would you say that the story of Mohammed and therefore Islam is just as mythical as the story of Jesus and Christianity ?
Click to expand...

Definitely not.
Mohammed is a historical figure, well documented by contemporary sources. He wrote the Quran in the middle of the 7th century AD for a variety of purposes. In general, I'd credit him with good intentions, such as rules for healthy living, domestic peace, but the pox on outsiders, etc. In order to solidify his authority and acceptance by "the unwashed masses", he cloaked his teachings into religious jargon, threatening sinners with eternal damnation and promising believers eternal paradise with free enjoyment of everything forbidden before one's death.

As a historic person, Jesus is far less documented - at least from independent contemporary sources. None of the Gospels has been written by himself; legends around his teachings were passed around orally. While biblical scholars will claim that in those days, legends were recounted far more reliably because the oral tradition took the role of written records, one need only compare the four main Gospels to find inconsistencies incompatible with such assurances. For Centuries, at least up until the Council of Nicaea, legends were altered, edited, and amended - all with the best intentions, of course, in order to solidify the authority of the church hierarchy.

Long story short: Mohammad wrote the Quran in one piece as a religio-political manifesto. Jesus didn't write any of the Gospels; His teachings - if in fact any survived in their original form - were written and edited by a great number of followers over centuries, adding myths and legends to the basic tenet.
 

Interesting that the Muslims recognise Jesus's existence and regard him as a prophet of Allah.

 
SirRumpole said:
Interesting that the Muslims recognise Jesus's existence and regard him as a prophet of Allah.

Click to expand...

They recognise other mythical figures too: Moses, Abraham, Satan, and a number of Archangels.
But so do Mormons and, I believe, Latter-Day Saints as well.

The only truly original, as far as I can think of, is L.Ron Hubbard's Science Fictionology. He really invented a brand new Fantasia, without reference to any earlier ones. Which probably explains why all followers of those older creeds feel spurned, ignored, and are therefor especially vehement in objecting to his piece of fiction.
(All, with the exception of Hollywood make-believers, of course. But we all know what a gullible bunch they are.)
 
SirRumpole said:
Would you say that the story of Mohammed and therefore Islam is just as mythical as the story of Jesus and Christianity ?
Click to expand...

Well there is a lot more evidence of Mohammed "The Man" existing.

But the stories about him such as flying a winged horse to heaven, being visited by angels, talking to allah etc would be mythical.

The Evidence I was asking for about Jesus eg. writtings about him from during his life ect actually exist for mohammed, But offcourse the religious stories and supernatural stuff is Mythical.
 
SirRumpole said:
Interesting that the Muslims recognise Jesus's existence and regard him as a prophet of Allah.

Click to expand...

Its called Fan fiction Buddy, Islam came about hundreds of years after the stories of Jesus had made the rounds.

Allah is just the Arabic would for god, and Allah is the god of Abraham, the same god from the Old and new testament, So they kept a lot of the same characters and just wrote a new updated book to suit themselves, Much like the Christians did.
 
SirRumpole said:
Interesting that the Muslims recognise Jesus's existence and regard him as a prophet of Allah.

Click to expand...

Maybe Christians don't like that - taking their Lord down a notch and stuff.

Oi, Christ is the son of God, not one of his top lieutenants.
 

All religion have a common aim though - legally avoiding tax

Kinda like big corporations nowadays.
 

So when are you going to start your own one VC?
 
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